Before you start your research journey, ask yourself these five questions

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200 program. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:59,680 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,240 Well, hello, everybody. 13 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,300 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 14 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:12,200 I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is a pleasure to be talking with you today. 15 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:18,600 So I have shared my story before, and I'm not sure if you've heard it, but I want to 16 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,720 share it again, just in case you haven't heard it. 17 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,440 But I always wanted to lead research. 18 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,120 I did. 19 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:36,120 And even going through medical school, I wanted to be in an academic medical center, and leading 20 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,620 research was kind of just a natural part of doing that. 21 00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:46,200 And what I didn't have was access to the research training that got me there. 22 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:53,080 What I was instead doing was doing a clinical program, but I wanted to be a clinical researcher, 23 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,320 a clinician scientist. 24 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,680 And so the clinical piece was important. 25 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:04,840 What I didn't recognize was that nowhere in the clinical training was research training. 26 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,240 Well, I went through medical school, and I had the opportunity to do research. 27 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:11,240 It was great. 28 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,320 I actually led a program of research. 29 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,360 It was a very small program, but I still led it. 30 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:22,880 I did a prospective study to evaluate a new, new-at-the-time technology called cone beam 31 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,400 CT in patients with breast cancer. 32 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,800 And so it was looking at accelerated partial breast irradiation, which was also a new technology 33 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,880 in radiation oncology at the time. 34 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:42,400 And it was an important paper, and that paper actually had been cited over 100 times. 35 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,160 So it was an important study, my first prospective study. 36 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:51,760 And if I ever had the bug as far as being bitten by the bug of research, maybe that 37 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:52,760 was it. 38 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:59,240 It was awesome to develop my own protocol to recruit providers who would be part of 39 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:00,240 that. 40 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,480 And by providers, it was the radiation therapists who were administering the radiation. 41 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:10,320 And then to recruit patients to the effort as well, it was such an amazing opportunity. 42 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,920 And I think one of the things it did for me was it pulled together my love for organizing 43 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:17,920 and collaboration and synergy. 44 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:20,760 And I got to do that when I was a medical student. 45 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:27,440 And that was my first, first journey to research, my first journey to leading a research program. 46 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:32,760 While I made it through medical school, residency, as you probably experienced, was super busy. 47 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:38,320 And yes, there was a little bit of time in there for research, but to be honest, there 48 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,280 was mostly time for being a great clinician. 49 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,280 And then I went to fellowship. 50 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:52,400 And fellowship is supposed to be the time when you are able to put aside all the clinical 51 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,160 stuff and really, really focus in on a research question and answer it, especially in a second 52 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:58,160 and third year. 53 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,000 Well, I didn't have that opportunity. 54 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,880 And our training program in particular was very big on making sure we had all the clinical 55 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,080 training that we needed. 56 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,000 And so we had three half days of clinic during the week. 57 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:16,920 And I have to tell you that three half days of clinic does not leave much room to grow 58 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:17,920 a research program. 59 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,800 And when I went around to different mentors, and especially when I went around to, well, 60 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:28,520 potential mentors, especially the PhD mentors, they would say, oh, yeah, so when are you 61 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:29,520 going to be in the lab? 62 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,480 And I would say, well, I have three half days of clinic. 63 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:37,640 And that would kill our potential mentor mentee experience. 64 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,040 He's like, nope, you're not going to be here. 65 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:41,400 There is no point. 66 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:42,400 And I didn't get it at the time. 67 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:43,400 I was so frustrated. 68 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,560 I remember a time I broke down and started crying. 69 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,000 And I was like, I wish I had never come to this fellowship program. 70 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,800 I was so, so, so disappointed. 71 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,960 Anyway, I made the most of my fellowship program. 72 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,800 I ended up getting a master's in clinical investigation, which turned out to be the 73 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,640 right thing to do. 74 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,000 And I did get some manuscripts written. 75 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,360 And I also did apply for funding. 76 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:11,360 And at the time, I got a clinical research training investigator award, CRTI. 77 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,480 I'm sure the I is not for investigator. 78 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:14,480 I don't know. 79 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,880 I come to these podcast episodes and I forget, like, key things. 80 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,600 But anyway, it was the ASH CRTI. 81 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,560 And I got that. 82 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:23,560 OK. 83 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,120 So that's all I had. 84 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,440 Going to my faculty position. 85 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,360 And then I finally got to my faculty position. 86 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,480 And only to find out that, you know what? 87 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,560 This research career you want to do, you're not actually qualified to do it. 88 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,120 And I'm like, what? 89 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:39,120 I'm not qualified? 90 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,880 They're like, yeah, we can't really make a case for you because, well, you don't have 91 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,800 much publication record to your name. 92 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,480 You don't have any grant funding. 93 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,000 So how are we going to make this case? 94 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,000 I mean, they didn't say that at the time. 95 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,560 I now can say that in retrospect because I understand what that means. 96 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,240 I understand that when a faculty member comes looking for a job, people are asking, well, 97 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,360 what skills do they already have? 98 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,320 Not what future skills do we think they'll acquire, but what do we know they can do right 99 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,200 now in terms of supporting the institution, right? 100 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,920 Every institution runs based on funding. 101 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,120 And as a clinician, you are able to support your institution because you bring in clinical 102 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:20,120 revenue. 103 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:26,200 And when you say, I want to actually work towards bringing in research revenue, then 104 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,560 people start to look at your qualifications. 105 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:33,200 And they're like, hmm, no manuscripts published. 106 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,920 Hmm, no grants ever acquired. 107 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:42,320 Hmm, yeah, no. 108 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:43,320 So that was me. 109 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:51,480 So I started my career as a faculty member doing 100% clinical. 110 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,120 And they would tell me that it was 80% clinical, but I was seeing patients five days a week. 111 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,640 So to be honest, I was spending all my time doing patient care. 112 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,000 And it wasn't just my eight to five from Monday to Friday. 113 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,200 It was my eight to five on Saturday and Sunday too. 114 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,200 Oh, and the night times. 115 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,000 Oh, yes, middle of the night too. 116 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,360 Because at the time I had a young baby. 117 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,920 Wow, it was challenging. 118 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:23,280 But they told me that, you know, you take this clinical position, you do all this clinical 119 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:28,240 work and we will support you the moment you start getting research manuscripts out the 120 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:29,240 door. 121 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,280 The moment you get funding, you'll get the support you need. 122 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:38,760 And what I didn't realize is that that transformation does not happen. 123 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:44,320 You do not become a research leader by doing clinical care. 124 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:45,520 You don't. 125 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:51,680 Clinical care can give you ideas to lead a research program, but clinical care and 126 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:57,840 the whole infrastructure of clinical care is not the same infrastructure that leads 127 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,160 you to leading a research program. 128 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,600 Okay, I didn't know this. 129 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,040 And so when I signed on, I was clearly naive. 130 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:14,480 And I think that while my case always felt unique at the time, I realized that more and 131 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:20,120 more clinicians are here in this boat where you want to lead a research program, but you're 132 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,400 coming just with years and years of clinical training. 133 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,720 No one really believes that you can. 134 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,680 And honestly, no one really supports you to do it. 135 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:29,680 So what do you do? 136 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,800 How do you make that transition? 137 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,040 How do you, while being a full-time clinician, make the transition to leading a research 138 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:38,040 program? 139 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,320 Well, that's the answer that I came to share with you today. 140 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,560 Or actually, I didn't come to share answers with you as much as that I came to ask you 141 00:08:46,560 --> 00:08:47,560 questions. 142 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:54,640 I'm going to talk to you today about five questions that you should ask on your journey 143 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,320 to becoming a clinician scientist. 144 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:57,680 Like, do you want to do this? 145 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:01,520 And these are the five questions you should ask and answer. 146 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:07,600 So you're going to answer the questions to determine whether you should take this step 147 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:13,200 or not, whether you should do the impossible and make the transition from clinician to 148 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,000 clinician scientists. 149 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:21,120 The first question is to ask yourself, what do I care about? 150 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,480 What do I care about? 151 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:31,880 And this may be the most important question that you need to answer before you move forward. 152 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:40,320 It's an important question because in our clinical training, actually, I can say our 153 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,140 because I know this was your clinical training too. 154 00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:47,200 You did what you have to do, whether you liked it or not. 155 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,400 It was just part of your training. 156 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,400 You went to medical school and they told you you had six major rotations you needed to 157 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,000 finish by the end of the year, right? 158 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,840 By the end of your clinical year. 159 00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:59,520 For many of you, that was your third year. 160 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,960 For me, that was my second year. 161 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,880 And it's pediatrics, it's surgery, it's internal medicine, it's psychiatry, it's obstetrics 162 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,280 and gynecology. 163 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,900 These are the required rotations. 164 00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:14,520 And then maybe you have one or two electives in there, things you choose. 165 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,240 For the most part, there's a very, very, very specific core curriculum that you need to 166 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:20,880 go through as a medical student. 167 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:28,220 And whether you love surgery or not, you wake up before AM, you do the surgery things, right? 168 00:10:28,220 --> 00:10:32,080 You don't say I care about surgery or I don't care, I'm not going to do this part of the 169 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:33,080 curriculum. 170 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:34,080 You just suck it up. 171 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,760 You show up and you be the best surgeon that you can be. 172 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,080 And that is the challenge of our training. 173 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,240 I mean, it was important and I'm glad we did it. 174 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,520 And we are better physicians for all the things we did that we hated to do. 175 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,760 But it's just not the way we live life. 176 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:56,440 It's the training, but it's not the way life is lived. 177 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,880 All the stuff you had to do is no longer relevant when you start to move into someone who's 178 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,000 shaping your own career into a faculty position. 179 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,880 Now you stop doing things just because you're obligated to. 180 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,480 To be honest, there are not many things you're obligated to do anymore. 181 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,320 But you start doing things because you care. 182 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,320 Like, no, this is what I care about. 183 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,000 The electives, this is my life now. 184 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,240 I do elective. 185 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:22,240 Elective time. 186 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:23,240 This is your elective time. 187 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,800 All the elective time you didn't do in your training, this is your elective time. 188 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,120 So what do you care about? 189 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,880 And this is a hard question because you've been so used to doing things you have to do. 190 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,080 And because you've done that for maybe 10 years of your life at least, now you're like, 191 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:40,160 well, this is all my life. 192 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:41,640 I only do things I have to do. 193 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,480 And the reality is you don't have to do things you don't care about. 194 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,040 What you should do, what you need to do. 195 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,180 I mean, in reality, you live in a community that cares about certain things. 196 00:11:51,180 --> 00:11:56,280 You should know what things are required in your institution for forward motion. 197 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,920 You should align the things you care about with those things. 198 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:02,280 And you can always make it work. 199 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,480 For example, if scholarship is important in your institution, well, do scholarship on 200 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,120 what you care about. 201 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:15,000 If international renown or being known nationally is important in your institution, well, be 202 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,760 known nationally for things you care about. 203 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,680 Do you see what I'm saying? 204 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:24,560 So yeah, there are things you have to do, but you make your own curriculum and you do 205 00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:29,400 the things you care about and make them count for the things you have to do. 206 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,880 But that's the first question you have to answer. 207 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,120 What do I care about? 208 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,440 Because it is time to stop doing the things you hate. 209 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:42,440 Because you cannot sustain a 30, 40 year career doing things you hate. 210 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,800 You can do it for a six week rotation. 211 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,240 You can do it for a 12 week rotation. 212 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,360 You can even suck it up and do it for a year. 213 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:55,320 You cannot spend your entire career doing things you hate. 214 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,440 So what do you care about? 215 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,720 Answer the question. 216 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,120 Number two is commitment. 217 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:05,800 Am I committed to research leadership? 218 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,280 This is a really important question. 219 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,280 Am I committed? 220 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:15,240 You know, research leadership is kind of like a marriage relationship or maybe people would 221 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,400 say a strong committed like time relationship. 222 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:19,760 It really is. 223 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,920 It's like, look, I mean, it's great that you love me and all, but are you committed to 224 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,960 me like, you know, for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse and sickness and in 225 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:29,960 health rate? 226 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,760 Are you committed? 227 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,520 The funding comes through, it doesn't come through. 228 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,560 Are you committed? 229 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:37,560 People support you. 230 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:39,000 They don't support you. 231 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,520 Are you committed? 232 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,080 The mentor shows up, the mentor doesn't show up. 233 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,080 Are you committed? 234 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,640 And that's an important question. 235 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,600 Sometimes I hear people saying, well, I just want to try and see if I like it. 236 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:57,160 It's like, yeah, no. 237 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:03,400 Sometimes this journey is hard and there are real roadblocks along the way and there are 238 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,800 real people who don't want you to win for whatever reason. 239 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,640 And so it's not the kind of thing for the faint of heart, but it is the kind of thing 240 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:18,680 that people who are committed can see it through because you're like, yeah, I'm not here for 241 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:19,960 the flowers and the roses. 242 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,600 I mean, I love those, but you know, I can get through because I'm committed to this 243 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,140 journey. 244 00:14:26,140 --> 00:14:27,700 So are you committed? 245 00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:33,760 Because research leadership is a commitment and you only start the journey if you're committed 246 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,760 to seeing it through. 247 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,880 And I think this is so important because everybody doesn't have to lead a research program. 248 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,560 You don't have to lead a research program. 249 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,840 You can participate in research. 250 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,440 You can work with a group of other investigators and just contribute as needed. 251 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:51,440 You can do that. 252 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,880 But if you say I'm leading a research program, it is a commitment because what you're doing 253 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:02,480 is you're building an infrastructure where people come and they contribute to a program 254 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:08,240 of research that you've conceived, that you are building, that you are funding, you are 255 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,400 leading, and therefore you're making a commitment. 256 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,280 And answer the question, am I committed to research leadership? 257 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,820 And if the answer is no, then don't do it. 258 00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:20,820 You don't have to. 259 00:15:20,820 --> 00:15:24,160 There are other ways to succeed. 260 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,000 But if you are committed, then you're ready. 261 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,680 You're ready for the journey. 262 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:37,260 Number three, I'm calling classified information, is that there is information you don't have 263 00:15:37,260 --> 00:15:39,240 access to. 264 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,800 And I know this because you're a clinician and your clinical training was about being 265 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:44,880 a great clinician. 266 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,040 It was not about being a great researcher. 267 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,800 I always talk about the fact that PhD scientists actually do research training. 268 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,040 Research training is about getting a PhD. 269 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,320 It's just part of their training, right? 270 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:04,040 And there is a certain set of tools for success as a research scientist. 271 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,080 It's a very clear set of tools. 272 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,760 It's not even really a secret. 273 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:14,460 It kind of sort of is to MDs because here you are in clinical land and you're feeling 274 00:16:14,460 --> 00:16:20,440 like this is a ripe field for research and it kind of sort of is because clinical care 275 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,040 is the foundation for the work we do as researchers. 276 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,560 But let's just say your clinical training doesn't really give you these research skills, 277 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:29,560 right? 278 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,560 And there are many of them. 279 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:31,560 I've talked about them in prior episodes. 280 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:37,120 But you don't have access to the information you need to succeed as a researcher until 281 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,040 you've gone to where there are researchers who are succeeding and found out what they 282 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,200 do. 283 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,760 And by the classified information, what I'm saying is one of the things they do in secret 284 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,160 where nobody can see them, that fuels their success. 285 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:57,800 How much time are they actually spending writing every day? 286 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,960 How many times are they submitting grants? 287 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,480 What grants are they submitting? 288 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,040 What research skills do they have? 289 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,640 What kinds of commitments are they making to their writing? 290 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,080 You know, I will tell you a couple of weeks ago, a group of collaborators and I sat down 291 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:18,040 and we paid a boatload of money. 292 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,600 I call it a boatload because it was an hour and a half. 293 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,840 And actually, I'll just tell you, it was an hour and a half and it was $2,500. 294 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:30,600 We sat down with an expert writer to go through our writing. 295 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,840 And I will tell you that everybody doesn't do that. 296 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,080 And I'm not necessarily here to say you should go do that. 297 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,800 But I'm telling you that there is a certain kind of commitment that people are making 298 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,280 to become good at what they do. 299 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,000 It is not an open thing. 300 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,000 It is a secret, right? 301 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,320 Secret because it's hidden from you. 302 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,880 That's why it's classified information. 303 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,040 But what classified information do you need access to? 304 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,240 What is needed to succeed in research? 305 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,280 What are people doing who succeed? 306 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,980 It's not common knowledge. 307 00:18:03,980 --> 00:18:07,520 But there is a clear set of tools for research success. 308 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:14,160 And the way you find out is to ask research scientists what these tools are. 309 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:20,000 So answer the question, what classified information do I need access to? 310 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,920 Question number four is creating structures. 311 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:29,320 What structures do you need to create to guarantee your success? 312 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,520 Ask that again. 313 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:37,880 What structures do you need to create to guarantee your success? 314 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,180 And the reason this happens, this is an important question, is because success does not happen 315 00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:45,740 in a vacuum. 316 00:18:45,740 --> 00:18:49,480 Success does not happen because you kind of woke up and you got lucky and you're like, 317 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,480 oh, look at you, you got successful. 318 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,680 Yay, yay, yay. 319 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,640 It was like when people told me when I started, they were like, yeah, well, go be a full-time 320 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,040 clinician, and whenever you can make the manuscripts happen and the grants get funded, 321 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:05,840 then of course we'll support you. 322 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,160 Like, it's not the kind of thing where you roll over in bed one day and you're like, 323 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:15,540 oh my gosh, I made it happen, everybody, I'm so lucky. 324 00:19:15,540 --> 00:19:19,760 You create the structure that is necessary to guarantee your success. 325 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,360 So what structures do you need to create? 326 00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:24,020 What structures are you missing? 327 00:19:24,020 --> 00:19:25,160 You now know, right? 328 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,440 Because if you answer the information about the classified information thing, you go create 329 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,160 a structure, right? 330 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,640 What's the structure you have, number one, for consistent writing? 331 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,880 I've talked about the skills that you need to build as a research scientist. 332 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,580 What structure do you have for consistent writing? 333 00:19:43,580 --> 00:19:45,840 What structures do you have to improve your writing? 334 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,640 Yeah, your writing's good. 335 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:53,680 And what structures do you have in place to take it to the next level? 336 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,440 What structures do you have in place for accountability? 337 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,080 Because no one's going to come knocking at your door saying, oh my gosh, did you submit 338 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,080 that grant? 339 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,800 Yeah, most of the time they don't do that. 340 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,400 But they'll come knocking at your door if you don't show up to clinic. 341 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,520 So what structures do you need to create for accountability? 342 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:17,940 What structures do you need to create to get access to information you need so your mentor 343 00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:21,160 doesn't show up to your mentoring meetings or your mentor doesn't give you information 344 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:22,560 that you feel like you need? 345 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,360 Who else can you go to to get the information you need? 346 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:34,560 What structures do you need to create that guarantee your success? 347 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,080 That's the next question to answer. 348 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,360 Question number five is your clinical expertise. 349 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,960 If you're going to be a clinician that's going to succeed as a scientist, then you've 350 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,460 got to make sure that your clinical expertise and your research overlap. 351 00:20:47,460 --> 00:20:49,000 They just have to. 352 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,440 Sometimes I see people say, well, my mentor is a breast cancer radiologist. 353 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,040 I guess that's what I do now. 354 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,360 And no, it's not what you do. 355 00:20:58,360 --> 00:20:59,760 Because remember, we started with care. 356 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,040 What do you care about? 357 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,480 If you don't care about it, please do not. 358 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,480 Oh my goodness. 359 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:05,480 Oh my gosh. 360 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,240 I've got to stop because this is about to get in a soap box now. 361 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:16,120 Many other people who build their careers around mentors' lives. 362 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,680 They're like, well, I don't care about this, but my mentor is super successful. 363 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,400 And if I want to be super successful, I want to do what they do. 364 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,800 And please do not do that. 365 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,920 Because your mentor's career birthed probably 20, 30 years ago is a different career from 366 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,040 your career. 367 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,640 And they've been successful. 368 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,800 And congratulations to your mentor. 369 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,200 You are building something new. 370 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,000 And the thing you're building is for this generation. 371 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,000 It's for now. 372 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,320 It's starting 20, 30 years later. 373 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,400 And you've got to care about what you're doing. 374 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:58,040 And it's got to really be the area in which you have strong expertise and you care about. 375 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,720 So you want to make sure they overlap. 376 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:06,320 Don't go changing what you're doing just because it makes sense. 377 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:07,680 It makes sense this moment. 378 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,760 It's short term gain. 379 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:15,440 But long term, that probably doesn't get you to where you need to be. 380 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,360 So those are the five questions. 381 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:22,400 I'll tell you that I actually have seven. 382 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,280 But I think it's good to stop at five. 383 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,720 If you want to hear the other two, you should come to our upcoming webinar where I talk 384 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:39,560 about how clinicians can transition to research leadership. 385 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:46,440 And I'm doing that on November 20th, Monday, November 20th at 6 p.m. Eastern time. 386 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,120 You are invited. 387 00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:53,640 For more information, you should visit our podcast website, ClinicianResearcherPodcast.com. 388 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,720 But I'm excited because this is my dream. 389 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,320 It's my vision is to see more clinicians lead research programs. 390 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,520 And I think it's challenging. 391 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,520 It's difficult. 392 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:09,680 But I absolutely know it can be done because I'm doing it and I'm helping other clients 393 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,320 do it as well. 394 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,960 And I know that if it is your dream, you can do it too. 395 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,880 So to summarize, five questions you need to ask yourself on the journey to becoming a 396 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,160 clinician scientist. 397 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,720 Number one, what do I care about? 398 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,520 Number two, am I committed to research leadership? 399 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,040 Number three, what classified information do I need access to? 400 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:38,320 Number four, what structures do I need to create to guarantee my success? 401 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,520 Number five, what is my overlapping area of clinical expertise? 402 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,440 Those are the five questions today. 403 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,640 I want to thank you so much for taking the time to listen. 404 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,680 And I look forward to talking with you again the next time. 405 00:23:53,680 --> 00:24:02,400 Take care. 406 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,720 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic 407 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:13,200 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 408 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,520 have a mentor. 409 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:20,640 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 410 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,360 Someone else needs to hear it. 411 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:26,440 So take a minute right now and share it. 412 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,880 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 413 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:37,520 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do health 414 00:24:37,520 --> 00:25:05,520 care.