Can I succeed with or without a mentor?

0:00 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research program. Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

0:40 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. Welcome to today's episode. I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is a pleasure to be speaking with you today. Thank you for tuning in. So I want to let you know that our next cohort of coaching clients begins August 28th, and if you want more information, sign up on our podcast website, www.clinicianresearcherpodcast.com.

1:23 Sign up, and we'll give you more information about signing up for our next cohort beginning August 28th. And if you miss it, we have another cohort beginning November 20th, so sign up to get on the wait list. I am excited about today's episode because we're going to be talking about something that came up with yesterday's podcast episode. So yes, I said that you can succeed as a clinician scientist with or without a mentor. And so there was an outcry from two groups of people. There was the outcry from the mentors who were like, what are you kidding? Nobody succeeds without a mentor. How dare you even say that? And then on the part of the trainees and young faculty, it was like, are you kidding me?

2:07 I can succeed without a mentor? Tell me more. So I'm here to speak to two groups of people today. One, the group that feels like you can never succeed without a mentor, and second to the group that is excited to find out that you might be able to. And I am excited to just kind of dispel some myths around mentoring today. So I want to tell you about a statistic that I learned reading a recent article. It's a systematic review from 2006, and this is a systematic review in JAMA that evaluated mentoring in academic medicine. And what this article found is that in some fields, less than 20% of faculty members had a mentor.

2:55 Less than 20% of faculty members had a mentor, and less than 50% of medical students had a mentor. When they asked women compared to men, women felt that they had less access to mentoring compared to the men. And this was a big deal because mentoring was reported to have an important influence on personal development, career guidance, career choice, and research productivity. So if mentoring is so important for our advancement as clinician scientists, then what is going on? Is it that less than 20% of people in some fields report that they have access to mentoring?

3:39 And what is this mentoring crisis that's going on? And does it mean that if there's no mentor, you can't succeed? And so those are some of the myths that I do want to talk about, and I'll talk about three myths related to mentoring. Number one is the myth that I don't have a mentor. Okay. Let's talk about this. Nobody in life can succeed by themselves. How do we know this? Well, it took more than one person to bring you into this world. Even if your mom was megadula or midwife or an obstetrician gynecologist, I want to bet that the chances are she did not birth you by herself in a corner where nobody was looking.

4:27 It takes at least two people to bring one person into this world. And when you go back to your childhood, you recognize that you had many, many people, including adults and your peers, contribute to your personal development. When you look back over the course of your medical training as a person who got into medical school, you had mentors who helped you succeed. As someone who transitioned to residency, really you had mentors to succeed in that process. And as someone who transitioned to fellowship, if you did fellowship, you had mentors to help you succeed in that process. So what happened? What happened when people finally transitioned to faculty jobs and then less than 20% of people in some fields say, I don't have a mentor?

5:13 What's going on? What is this mentor that is missing in people's lives? And so the myth that I do want to dispel about mentoring today is that when you say, I don't have a mentor, it really is a sign that there's a specific kind of mentoring you feel that you're missing, but you don't get to say, I don't have a mentor because you know what everybody succeeds because of mentors. Well, what is a mentor? Are we saying the same thing when we're talking about mentoring? Well, let me define mentoring as I'm thinking about it right now, not the formal definition because I didn't look it up formally.

5:53 But I look at a mentor as someone who's done something that you want to do. They've gone ahead of you and they already have knowledge that you don't have. And so the mentor gives you access to the knowledge that they have so that you can accomplish what they've accomplished. For example, someone who, let's use an example outside of academic medicine. So if someone has succeeded in, actually let's stay with academic medicine. Somebody has succeeded in publishing a research manuscript. They have knowledge on how to take a manuscript from idea to manuscript to submitted and to accepted for publication.

6:34 That is a very specific skill. Now that person is a mentor to somebody who's never done that before because they're able to show them, okay, this is how you take your concept and you develop the manuscript. This is how after developing the manuscript, you research the journals to which you're going to submit this manuscript. And this is how after you've researched the journals, you submit to one that makes sense. Then when they send you back the revisions, this is what you do. Or if they reject you, this is what you do. And on and on and on until the manuscript is finally published. That is a mentor that is able to deliver to you a specific skill set that they already have. Okay. So when people say, I don't have a mentor, they're saying, I don't have a specific type of mentor and relationship that I feel is significant to my career advancement.

7:23 But they're not saying I don't have a mentor because clearly if they've succeeded as much as they have, someone's been showing them the ropes. And so I first of all want to dispel the myth that I don't have a mentor because it's simply not true. Now when people say I don't have a mentor, what they're really saying is that I don't have a research mentor, therefore I can't succeed. We're going to talk a little bit about that shortly. But I do want to let you know that if you've succeeded ever in life, it's because you have a network of mentors who've helped you succeed. And so when people say I don't have a mentor, what they're looking for is the guru mentor, the one mentor in whom all of life consists. And to be honest, people don't really even believe in the guru mentor concept.

8:06 People know that there are different facets of themselves, that one person can't meet all of that. Yet when we say I don't have a mentor, what we're saying is that we're looking for the one mother figure in whom all skill, all knowledge, all wisdom is contained. So the one person who's going to help me become a clinician scientist, the one person who's going to show me how to write manuscripts and shepherd it through the publication process, the one person who's going to guide my career development, the one person who's going to sponsor me throughout the institution, the one person I can come to when my life explodes, the one person I can come to when I need on and on and on it goes.

8:54 Is there really such a person? Would you even want that kind of person, the one person in charge of your life? There isn't such a human. But the problem is that in academic medicine, we've made this myth that there is only one person that helps you succeed. And I'm here to talk about, I'm here to dispel that myth. And I'm also here to talk about different types of mentoring relationships that you need to be successful. So myth number one is I don't have a mentor. It's not true. I have many mentors and no, most people don't have the guru mentor as demonstrated in that article that tells us that less than 20% of faculty in some fields feel like they have a mentor.

9:41 What's happening to this 80% of faculty is that they have a specific mentoring need that they recognize that they don't have. When you recognize that you don't have something, do you know what you do? You go get it. And this is one of the challenges of this myth of the one guru mentor, because if you can't find that one guru mentor, some people feel like their academic life is over. And it's one of the reasons why the podcast exists is because we want to help dispel these myths. There are many skills you need to succeed as a clinician scientist, super many, many, many, many skills. And to think that these skills can be received, can be acquired from one person is a little bit of a disservice to the field.

10:24 And it does a disservice to faculty members who otherwise are capable of succeeding with just the right direction. Okay, so myth number one, don't have a mentor. If you've succeeded thus far, you've succeeded because you have a network of mentors. And today I want to show you that network that you have. Okay, myth number two is I need to find the one. Now this is really silly. And I'll tell you that this idea comes to me from Carrie Ann Rockmore of National Center for Faculty Development and Diversity Fame. And Carrie Ann Rockmore talks about the guru mentor.

11:04 And I love the figure she shows where it's like one guru sitting meditating in the middle, and then all arrows leading to this one guru mentor. And the truth is, the reality is, and it seems laughable now when you really think about it, it's like, okay, what happens if you have problems with your teenager at home? What do you talk to? Is that going to be your one guru mentor? What if you're having troubles in your relationship? Who does that go to? Is it your one guru mentor? Okay, I can recognize if you're having trouble in your research, perhaps this one guru mentor, as people like to think of this one person as the guru, maybe that one guru mentor can help you.

11:48 Every mentor has their skills. And we'll talk a little bit about the different mentoring relationships that you need to establish. But I think the examples I bring up, the who do you go to when you have trouble with your partner? Who do you go to when you have trouble with your teenager? Okay, it's not going to be the one guru mentor. And if it is, we've got to talk because it's not a healthy relationship. And really, it's a burden to put on one person to be the one person on whom all of this rests. And so I think I want to share with you that there is not one person for you. There's never been one person for you in all of life. Even if in life, you are so fortunate to have found the one partner who's going to totally like, you know, rock your world, congratulations to you.

12:31 That's not most people's experience. Most people have a partner that's amazing, and they still need partners at work. And they still need partners in life. And they still need girlfriends or boyfriends, whatever it is. There is not one person who's human, who can satisfy all your needs. It's never been true in any part of your life, and it won't be true for you in your journey to become a clinician scientist. I just want to tell you that there is not one guru mentor. And if that's the one mentor that you feel like you're lacking and because of that you can't succeed, that's why I'm telling you that you can succeed with or without a mentor. Okay, the one guru mentor is not needed. Mentoring networks definitely need it.

13:12 Okay. The third myth is that nobody succeeds without a mentor. And that's a myth as well because again, everybody has mentors. You may not have a mentor in the specific area. That's one of the reasons why it's so important for us to recognize what is the area in which you lack mentoring. Because if you can't find a mentor in a specific area, guess what you do? You go find one. If you're looking for the one guru that's going to satisfy all your needs forever and ever amen, of course you're not going to find that. You're not going to find that even if people establish research dating websites where you can find your mentor for a fee. You're not going to find that. But if you say this is the specific skill that I need, this is a specific area in which I need mentoring, it liberates you to go find that mentor.

14:00 And so it is a myth to say nobody succeeds without a mentor because it's not even a true statement. It's like what kind of mentor are you talking about? Nobody succeeds in what? That's one of the things that I'm here to dispel is just to say there's not one mentor. You are a multifaceted person. Up until now you succeeded with the help of many people. That will be your story throughout your life. Stop looking for one person who's going to change your story. Okay. So maybe now you're like, okay, okay, okay. So you say nobody succeeds with it. Nobody needs a mentor, but everybody needs a mentoring network. What are you talking about? Okay. I will talk to you about seven mentoring relationships you need to cultivate as a clinician scientist.

14:43 Seven mentoring relationships you need to cultivate as a clinician scientist. And in listing all of this, I hope that you get a picture of how full your life really is, how multifaceted you are, and how much help you really need that hopefully is not coming from one person. Okay. Mentor number one is a research mentor. Okay. So if you're one person that mostly people are referring to when they say, I need a mentor, I don't have a mentor, what does the research mentor give you? I want to first of all say that a research mentor is not a career mentor. And the challenge is that people conflate the two. They think their research mentor has to be their career mentor.

15:23 And I will tell you that, you know, I've kind of given number two away. Number two is the career mentor, but I'm going to focus right now on the research mentor. What does the research mentor give you? Well the research mentor really helps you with research design, methodology, and interpreting research findings. Doing research is a skill. Doing research in a specific area is a skill. And depending on the work you do, there's a specific set of methodologies that are needed to succeed in that area. Now if you're at the bench, there's specific set of assays you need to be able to run, or maybe you develop assays. Maybe there are specific instruments that you need to be able to use. There's someone who already knows how to do that.

16:05 And even within that research mentor is a team of people who have access to these different skills. For example, let's say you're in the basic science lab. Your big mentor is a big mentor, but when it comes to the hands-on, here's how to do this experiment, it is less likely, especially the bigger your lab is, that your one big mentor is going to come and show you how to do it. What's more likely is that there's a graduate student in the lab who's going to show you the ropes. They're like, oh, I've been doing this research methodology. I'll show you how to do it. And so the research skills you need can be acquired from one person, but more likely they're actually acquired from multiple people. What the research mentor helps you do is just think about how do we design this research project?

16:47 How do we take this one big, hairy, audacious question and turn it into an actionable project that you can actually work on? And so the research mentor is really about the person who helps you with research design methodology. And then when you get your results, what do you do with it? What does it mean? You're like, oh, I got these results. How do we interpret it? That's what research mentors do. And here's the thing. If you are an MD, your research mentor doesn't have to be an MD. Many MDs don't get research training. And so here we are, all of us clamoring for the one MD in our program who has research training. And the vendor that person says, no, I can't help you, right? They're overwhelmed.

17:28 They've got a lot of people to care for. But do you know what you have at your institution? You've got thousands of PhDs. For every MD with research training, you've probably got at least 100 PhDs at your institution who have research training that's equal to or better than your MD researcher. And what does that mean? That means that when you're looking for research mentorship, look beyond your MD faculty. Look beyond your division. Look beyond your department. Hey, look beyond your institution. And so yes, when you think about applying for career development awards, people are saying, who's your one mentor? Throughout medicine, there's this culture of who's your one mentor.

18:08 And it's fine. What they're really saying is who's primary? Who's primary in your research? Because it kind of depends. Who's primary in your career? We'll talk about a career mentor next. If a research mentor has very specific tools that they are equipping you with, and that's really focused on research design, research methodology, and how to interpret findings. Does this research mentor have to be the one to show you how to shepherd a manuscript through publication? Not necessarily. Does this research mentor have to be the one to show you how to succeed in research funding? No. And so we conflate one person, and we ask them to have all these skills, but they don't have to. There are many PhD researchers who are excellent in methodology, but don't necessarily have the success in grant funding that you'd like to see.

18:56 And so what you want to do is be very clear about what you get from a research mentor, and don't ask them to give you everything. It's great when they can give you more than one thing, but if they can't, don't give up and say, I don't have a mentor, and therefore I quit. Identify the skills you have, so that you understand what your research mentor should be able to give you, and what you don't get from your research mentor. I'm spending a lot on this because the research mentor, I think, is the one mentor we feel like should give us everything. People get disappointed when they're like, well, my research mentor is a jerk. I can't survive under this person. I want you to recognize what your research mentor can give you, and what your research mentor cannot give you. Many people who succeed in research are not very nice people.

19:37 In fact, somehow to succeed, they become really mean, or they become really aggressive, or maybe they're mean to younger people. They're still really good at their research methodology. They're so good. Can you say, no matter what kind of person this one is, I'm going to get what I need in terms of research design, research methodology, in terms of interpreting my findings, and then have somebody else do the rest? Could we do that? I feel like we'd have healthier communities if we could just ask our research mentor to just do research for us, and then find other mentors in other areas. Okay, I've spent a lot of time on that one. Number two is a career mentor. Okay, if you're going to succeed, you do need people to help you, and you don't need one. You need many people, because there are many career paths in academic medicine.

20:20 That includes research leadership. So, yes, there are the people who've only done research leadership as their primary thing in the academy, but more often than not, people are research leaders and their research leaders and their clinicians, their research leaders and their administrators. Maybe they've made the transition from research leader to administrator. So many career paths in medicine. And so you do need career mentors, but you don't need just one. The one career mentor can only show you their career path in academic medicine, and you need to know about different career paths in academic medicine so you can make an informed decision about the kind of career you're building. And so, yes, you need career mentors, and your research mentor doesn't have to be a career mentor.

21:06 Your career mentor doesn't have to be a research mentor. So I would just argue with you that at a minimum in your success as an academic physician, you need at least two mentors. One to show you research stuff, and the other person to help you lead in your career. But you don't just need two. You need actually multiple people, because you need more than one thing for more than one person. Okay, so the second group of mentors is the career mentors. They give you access to career development. At least they tell you about things they've participated in. They can give you wisdom as to what types of things you should be thinking about, depending on the kind of career that you're trying to develop. So definitely make sure that you have in your mentoring network a career development mentor.

21:49 Another group of mentors you should have are peer and near peer mentors. What does that mean? Okay, let's use an example. Well, you know what peer mentoring means, but I just want to talk about the importance of it relative to other things you've done in your life. So if you're an academic physician, at some point you did medical school. And when you were going through the medical school admissions process, you didn't even if you knew like the dean of your medical school, that's not the person you call, hey, Dean, how do I get into med school? Like, how do I study for the MCAT? They're so far from it, they can't help you. And so what do you do? You ask someone who just took the MCAT, you're like, hey, I need to take the MCAT. And how do you how do you study for it? Right? That person did it three months ago, that person did it a year ago.

22:30 They can help you. But the person who did it seven years ago, they can help you less. The person who did it 18 years ago, definitely, definitely they can't help you. It's a new test probably, right? So you have peer mentors, people who've done who are in kind of the same career stage as you, who can really help you. They're like, oh, yeah, I just onboarded a new research technician last week. Let me show you what I did. That person is a mentor to you. And then what about near peer mentors? A near peer mentor is someone who's maybe a year ahead, or two years ahead. Maybe you're a brand new faculty member at an institution and you have no idea where anything is. Your tendency is to run to your research mentor and say, show me the ropes. And to be honest, that person has been around the institution for so long, they forgot what it feels like to not know anybody at the institution.

23:14 But for someone who's like only been at the institution for a year or two, they can say, oh, this is the listserv you need to get on to have access to all the funding opportunities are coming through, because they just did that. And so if you don't have peer mentors, if you don't have near peer mentors, there's some big gaps you're going to have in your trajectory. And the reality is, of course, you have peer mentors. You've had peer mentors throughout your journey to become an academic physician. And yes, you have peer mentors today. I mean, at the minimum, you have people who came in at the same time as you at your institution. You probably met them in orientation, or at least you have people who are like a year or two ahead of you, because institutions are, they always tend to be hiring.

23:55 And they may not be hiring your division or your department, but they're hiring elsewhere. And so you have access to peers, you have access to near peers, and you actually need them to succeed, because there are things they can give you that your senior mentors can't. OK. The fourth group of mentors that you need are skill specific mentors. What is a skill specific mentor that kind of I think is intuitive? You have never written a grant to this particular organization. Let's say the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. They have a request for proposals that has just been released. And you've never written a proposal to this particular organization before. OK.

24:35 You have a specific skill that you're looking for. What do you do? Do you go find your research mentor? You could. What if you found the person who just submitted for that award and was successful? That's a very specific skill that they can give you, is applying to this very specific award. OK. I'm talking about grant writing now. What about the specific skill? Let's say you want to learn to do flow cytometry. You could ask your research mentor who learned flow cytometry maybe 30 years ago. And to be honest, they don't do any of their own flow cytometry now. Or you could ask the person, even the research tech, who's like, hey, can you show me how to do this flow cytometry? It's a very specific skill that you're looking for. And somebody can show you that.

25:16 Let's use one more example. You're writing a manuscript. You've never developed a manuscript. You've never submitted a manuscript. That's OK. Somebody else has done it. You could go to your research mentor. Or you could find the person in your network who just did that. Or you could find a program that teaches you how to write manuscripts. So if there's a very specific skill that you need, somebody has it. And you can find a skill-specific mentor to show you how to do that. OK. The fifth type of mentor is an institutional mentor. Now let me tell you about institutions. They have been around longer, usually, than you've been alive. You may be in a young institution.

25:56 But for the most part, institutions are old. They have layers. And that's why there are people who have institutional memory. They know. They know who you go to when you need x, y, z. They know why the academic and promotion tenure package was set up a certain way. They know about APT, that's academic promotions and tenure. They know about these things. You need somebody who has that kind of institutional memory, who's been around a long time, that can help you navigate. So when you say, wow, I can't get my project through the IRB, why is that? There's somebody who's kind of been around long enough that they have access to the person who has access to the person who has access to the person who has the IRB knowledge.

26:44 Somebody knows what you need. And the longer they've been at the institution, the more they know. And so some people will say, well, my research mentor just arrived. And they don't know, so I don't know. Who else can show you? Who else can tell you? There are people around your institution who've been around a long time and are so happy, so happy to offload the burden of the memory they have on someone who could use it. They're like, thank you so much for asking me. Thank you so much. I've been storing this knowledge in my head for years and years, waiting for someone like you just to come and ask me about it. So make use of people who've been around a long time and just shortcut the journey. Don't struggle.

27:25 Don't struggle with your one mentor, your one research mentor who doesn't know, who hasn't been here long enough. Find somebody who can give you information that helps you move forward faster. OK, that was number five. Number six, number six is an external mentor. Your institution is so awesome. It's the greatest thing that ever happened to the world since sliced bread. Your institution is just one institution. Academic medicine has a culture that actually transcends institutions. The variation of how it's practiced or how the culture is manifest does vary from institution to institution. But the big things, what it takes to be promoted, what it takes to be funded, what it takes to be a research leader, what it takes to be well-known in your field, those are things that are not confined to any one institution.

28:16 So why stop at your one institution? Why stop at one person in your institution as the source of all your knowledge? And could that knowledge be really true? It is not to say that your research mentor is lying to you, but just saying that if you only have a one-sided perspective of the academic universe, you only have a one-sided perspective. And it's multifaceted. There are so many perspectives that can enrich you as a person. And so if you have a network of mentors and you're missing an external mentor from an external institution, you need that. And if you came to your institution from another institution, you kind of already have that.

28:59 But what I'm asking you to do is to really work towards developing your cohort of external mentors, of external peer mentors, of external senior mentors, because they have information that helps you think differently, that enhances your experience within the academy. Okay, that was number six. So number seven is a life mentor. You know, when everything hits the fan and you need some encouragement and life just is not working the way you want it to, you want to have someone you can go talk to. A safe space where someone's not going to be worried that the fact that your apartment burned down yesterday might affect their ability to submit the abstract by the deadline.

29:46 And the reality of that, I know that should never be. I mean, your research mentor should be someone you can go to and you can tell them everything, but please just don't do that. Don't burn them. Their job is just to help you succeed in research. If your apartment is burning down, I hope you'll have somebody to talk to, to give you encouragement and to show you the ropes and tell you what to do. And you probably do. But what I want you to recognize is that all the troubles that are going on in your life don't have to be offloaded to your one mentor. And hopefully you have more than one having heard all that I've told you. Your research mentor doesn't have to be the be all and end all of all your academic and life means. And the life mentor, I hope you recognize that you probably already had that even before you started medical school.

30:33 I hope you have a contrary of friends that you can turn to in times of need. And if yes, your life problems or your life challenges are affecting your ability to work well with someone with whom you've made a commitment to working with, you should let that person know how the life problem affects that commitment. They don't need to be the one to give you sympathy. They don't need to be the one to hold you by the hand and walk you through the challenges because you know what, your network is big enough to accept people who can help you do that. So I've talked about seven mentoring relationships that are beneficial to you on your journey. I've talked about seven mentoring relationships that are beneficial to you on your journey as a clinician scientist.

31:19 And I want you to think about cultivating this network. I want you to stop hoping that one person is going to give you all of it and start really thinking about what you really need and who can give it to you. So I want to ask you this week to sit down and really think about, okay, these seven areas that we've talked about on today's episode, where am I missing mentors? Or where do I have mentors that I hadn't acknowledged that I already have? And what are the specific skills I'm missing? And who can give me access to those skills? If there was somebody else who needs to hear this podcast episode, please forward it to them. If you have a mentor and you have a mentee who's like, oh, this person probably doesn't know that I'm not the one person to give them everything they need, definitely forward this episode to them.

32:05 Let's make sure that after today, after you listen to this episode today, there is not another person who loses the opportunity to recognize the mentoring networks they already have established. Let's make sure that there's not going to be another faculty member who drops out because they're like, I don't have a mentor. Let's help people recognize that whether or not they have the one guru mentor, they can still succeed. All right. That's been today's episode. I look forward to the next one. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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