How to be a good mentee

100:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills200:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.300:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.400:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find500:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research600:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200program.700:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.800:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.900:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians1000:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.1100:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,120Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.1200:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,000Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.1300:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,620I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you today.1400:01:09,620 --> 00:01:10,760Thank you for tuning in.1500:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,440Thank you for listening.1600:01:12,440 --> 00:01:17,880I'm excited to bring you today's episode titled, How to Be a Good Mentor.1700:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,960The title of the episode is, How to Be a Good Mentor.1800:01:22,960 --> 00:01:28,520The title of this episode comes from a recent conference that I attended.1900:01:28,520 --> 00:01:34,640It's a workshop of like-minded individuals who want to advance diversity in clinical2000:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,480trials, and we had a session on mentoring, which is awesome.2100:01:38,480 --> 00:01:45,080I'm really excited when conferences are dedicated to career development.2200:01:45,080 --> 00:01:52,760She stepped up to the podium and she asked a question, how do you become a good mentee?2300:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,880And I remember when I heard that question, my heart sank and I had this weird pit in2400:01:57,880 --> 00:02:07,200my stomach because I thought, I'm like, no, please, are you asking that question?2500:02:07,200 --> 00:02:12,320And so I do want to share just to give you full disclosure that no matter what you're2600:02:12,320 --> 00:02:18,400thinking, this episode is not going to turn out exactly as you thought, because I have2700:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,960some thoughts about that question that I'm going to break down.2800:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,800But before I start it, if I start the episode, before I start telling you how to be a good2900:02:27,800 --> 00:02:33,480mentee, or at least my thoughts about it, I need to first share with you my history.3000:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,720It's just going to be short.3100:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,240It's not my life history, but it's going to be short.3200:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,300I grew up as a goody two shoes.3300:02:40,300 --> 00:02:43,480I don't know if you have ever met people like me.3400:02:43,480 --> 00:02:49,800I am the kid who would study the landscape, figure out what the adults wanted, and I would3500:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,760do it to a T. I was the one everybody called a good girl.3600:02:53,760 --> 00:02:58,560I was just so good at it because, you know, adults were so easy to please.3700:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,760They would want a certain thing and I would just give it to them.3800:03:02,760 --> 00:03:09,600And consistently, so in my culture, I'm Nigerian, the women, girls greet on their knees.3900:03:09,600 --> 00:03:15,320And you know, we're kind of like, we don't, I think now in the 21st century, people don't4000:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,760really do that really much anymore.4100:03:17,760 --> 00:03:24,840But there's like a kind of like an ode that we, let me say, like you genuflect in a sense,4200:03:24,840 --> 00:03:30,560like you kind of like bob a little bit as like, oh, yes, this is how I greet.4300:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,360This is how I say hello.4400:03:32,360 --> 00:03:37,560And so anyway, so now people culturally don't get on their two knees, for the most part.4500:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,880But you know, there is kind of like a symbol of like, okay, I may not be getting on my4600:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,600two knees, but I'm coming down a little bit just to say it's a sign of respect.4700:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,640So you know, I'm Nigerian, but I'm originally Yoruba.4800:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,360So it's very specific to the Yoruba culture.4900:03:51,360 --> 00:03:56,720Okay, so, but adults would get so tickled when I would go down on both knees, which5000:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,320is like, oh my gosh, this girl is so respectful.5100:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,000Oh my goodness.5200:04:01,000 --> 00:04:07,200And so the first time I tried it when I was a kid, and you know, the adult I did it for,5300:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,840gosh, so much.5400:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,640I was like, oh, is this it?5500:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,240This is what makes them so happy.5600:04:12,240 --> 00:04:17,480So I was the kid who would get down on both knees to say good morning and they loved me.5700:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,600I mean, I just, I was, oh my gosh, people loved me.5800:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,760Anyway, I'm getting carried away by my goody two shoes-ness.5900:04:23,760 --> 00:04:29,200But anyway, I think I say all that to say that at the end of the day, the adults were6000:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,220so tickled about me, but how did it move me forward?6100:04:33,220 --> 00:04:36,560How did it move me forward in service to humanity?6200:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,360I developed a great people pleasing strategy.6300:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,400I would figure out what people wanted and I would do it.6400:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,800And I have to tell you that that's what I carried into my faculty career.6500:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,680I would figure out what the, you know, the senior people wanted and I would do it.6600:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,440And so that was me studying how to please people.6700:04:55,440 --> 00:04:56,560And so I got very good at it.6800:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,360So when I am asked the question, how to be a good mentee, I will tell you that culturally6900:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,980and personally, I can do that.7000:05:03,980 --> 00:05:06,660I'm very good at it.7100:05:06,660 --> 00:05:10,400And now I'm going to talk to you about my ideas about how to be a good mentee.7200:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,800So I, I'm not talking here about culture.7300:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,640I want to focus on how to be a good mentee.7400:05:16,640 --> 00:05:22,360But what I want to tell you is that if you are somebody who's going to come and make7500:05:22,360 --> 00:05:29,000a difference and make an impact, you don't ask, how do I please you?7600:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,960You ask, how do I advance in the thing for which I came to do?7700:05:33,960 --> 00:05:34,960Okay.7800:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,240I'm going to say that again in a different way.7900:05:37,240 --> 00:05:42,440If you're going to be someone who's going to make an impact in the world, you're going8000:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,200to transform the lives of patients.8100:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,760You don't ask, what do I do to make everybody around me happy?8200:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,760Even if they're senior mentors who are doing excellently, you ask, what do I need to advance8300:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,200so that I can accomplish this?8400:05:57,200 --> 00:06:02,600Now if you're in the academy just to get along, if you're in the academy just to have a good8500:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,880job, if you're in the academy just so you can check boxes, then please by all means8600:06:06,880 --> 00:06:08,960study how to be a good mentee.8700:06:08,960 --> 00:06:15,560This is not going to be the episode for you.8800:06:15,560 --> 00:06:21,420And I have to apologize if my title misled you into this, you know, false sense of security8900:06:21,420 --> 00:06:26,160that I was actually going to tell you that I value, you know, that question of how to9000:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,520be a good mentee.9100:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,280So please accept my apologies and it's okay if you want to drop off right now.9200:06:31,280 --> 00:06:39,240But for everybody else who's intrigued, you know, there are many times in life that we9300:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,280just go through the motions.9400:06:42,280 --> 00:06:45,080And I want to say that the academic career is not the right place for going through the9500:06:45,080 --> 00:06:46,080motions of life.9600:06:46,080 --> 00:06:47,240It's just not.9700:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,600I want to say that it cost a minimum of 10 years, and that's not counting all the time9800:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,080you put in trying to get into medical school.9900:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,920It cost most of us a minimum of 10 years to go through medical school residency fellowship,10000:06:58,920 --> 00:07:00,740for those of you who went through fellowship.10100:07:00,740 --> 00:07:01,740And then some more.10200:07:01,740 --> 00:07:06,840I have one of my classmates who probably spent like four or five years in fellowship.10300:07:06,840 --> 00:07:12,960And so there's been a lot of investment in this career to become a clinician and a clinician10400:07:12,960 --> 00:07:13,960scientist.10500:07:13,960 --> 00:07:20,240And if at the end of that journey, what you want to do is just make people around you10600:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,240happy, I want to say that that's probably not the greatest of goals.10700:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,120And I will also say it actually is the hardest goal.10800:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,880You will never succeed.10900:07:30,880 --> 00:07:31,880Okay.11000:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,640As a clinician, you have many, many people, many bosses, right?11100:07:34,640 --> 00:07:40,000You have the people in clinic who need your close charts, see as many patients as possible.11200:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,880Their priorities for you are different from your mentors who want you to succeed in research,11300:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,600who wants you to move their research program forward for some mentors who are very focused11400:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,320on still kind of like advancing their careers really early on.11500:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,340Their focus is on you doing the work.11600:07:56,340 --> 00:08:00,240And then you have the education component, right?11700:08:00,240 --> 00:08:06,560Their focus, the CME or the GME group, their focus is on getting you to help train as many11800:08:06,560 --> 00:08:07,560trainees as possible.11900:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,840And they would love you to just give lectures every day, day in and day out.12000:08:11,840 --> 00:08:17,260Well, just put those three things together, the research, the education and the clinical,12100:08:17,260 --> 00:08:20,080and they're already in conflict with one another.12200:08:20,080 --> 00:08:21,960You cannot please people.12300:08:21,960 --> 00:08:27,120If you're going to be a good clinician, a good researcher and a good educator, you're12400:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,120going to have a lot of conflict in life.12500:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,040And I know this is the foundation of all academic medical schools that everybody has to be great12600:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,600at all things.12700:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,400And it's a fallacy, right?12800:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,560You are great at one thing and then other things follow.12900:08:40,560 --> 00:08:44,680They can be a close second and third, but you can't be great at so many things at the13000:08:44,680 --> 00:08:45,680same time.13100:08:45,680 --> 00:08:46,680Okay.13200:08:46,680 --> 00:08:48,960I hope I'm not going off.13300:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,080I'm sorry, I'm a tangent.13400:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,120But clearly you can tell I feel a little bit strongly about this particular question.13500:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,120Okay.13600:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,880I want to talk to you about five things.13700:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,600If you're asking the question how to be a good mentee, I want to give you five things13800:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,240to think about, okay?13900:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,360I'm not going to answer the question about how to be a good mentee because I'm not sure14000:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,320it's useful, but I am going to give you five things to think about.14100:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,880Thing number one is that your job, if you're going to be a clinician scientist leading14200:09:17,880 --> 00:09:24,280a research program that impacts patients, your job is not to be a good mentee.14300:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,360Your job is to advance your career in service of humanity.14400:09:28,360 --> 00:09:29,360Okay.14500:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,520I want to say that again.14600:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,880If you are a clinician who is transitioning to research or you're already a clinician14700:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,120scientist, you're owning your place as a clinician scientist, even if you have not done this14800:09:41,120 --> 00:09:48,200before and you need someone to show you the way, your job is not to be good.14900:09:48,200 --> 00:09:49,200It's not to be a good girl.15000:09:49,200 --> 00:09:50,760It's not to be a good boy.15100:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,560It's not to accept anybody patting you on the head and saying, oh my gosh, you're so15200:09:53,560 --> 00:09:54,560good.15300:09:54,560 --> 00:09:57,560Even though it feels so good.15400:09:57,560 --> 00:10:01,320It feels so good when they do that, but that's not your job.15500:10:01,320 --> 00:10:08,880Your job is to advance your career in service of humanity because you know and I know we've15600:10:08,880 --> 00:10:09,880both been in the clinic.15700:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,680We've both been in the hospital and you know that there is so much further that we can15800:10:13,680 --> 00:10:14,680go in healthcare.15900:10:14,680 --> 00:10:16,680Yes, we've made many breakthroughs.16000:10:16,680 --> 00:10:17,680Oh my goodness.16100:10:17,680 --> 00:10:20,720Imagine life today without penicillin or antibiotics.16200:10:20,720 --> 00:10:21,720Oh my goodness.16300:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,240Imagine life today with our cardiac catheterizations.16400:10:24,240 --> 00:10:25,240Oh my goodness.16500:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,720Imagine life today without transplant surgery.16600:10:27,720 --> 00:10:32,960We have made incredible advances in healthcare, but we know we are not done yet.16700:10:32,960 --> 00:10:39,420I'm at a conference this week that talks about how do we close to the disparities in access16800:10:39,420 --> 00:10:40,520to clinical trials.16900:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,920There's so much to be done.17000:10:42,920 --> 00:10:49,560And so if you are going to move forward work that serves humanity, you don't ask the question,17100:10:49,560 --> 00:10:51,400how am I going to be a good person?17200:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,400How am I going to be a good mentee?17300:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,960How am I going to be a good mentee to my mentor?17400:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,400You ask the question, how do I advance this career that's going to transform the way we17500:11:01,400 --> 00:11:02,400do healthcare?17600:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,040That's the question you want to answer.17700:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,600And if that's not the question you want to answer, then okay.17800:11:08,600 --> 00:11:09,600It's okay.17900:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,280I'm speaking to a very specific audience today.18000:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,280I'm speaking to people who came to make a transformation.18100:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,940And so your job is not to be a good mentee.18200:11:18,940 --> 00:11:21,600And if you are asking the question, how do I become a good mentee?18300:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,600You're asking the wrong question.18400:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,560Because becoming a good mentee can mean many things to different mentors.18500:11:27,560 --> 00:11:33,520But does becoming a good mentee serve your purpose of advancing your career, making the18600:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,800kind of impact that changes humanity?18700:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,880And I think the answer is no.18800:11:39,880 --> 00:11:40,880Okay.18900:11:40,880 --> 00:11:41,880All right.19000:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,560That's my first thought.19100:11:44,560 --> 00:11:48,960My second thought is that your mentor does not exist to tell you what to do.19200:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,560So it's an interesting perspective.19300:11:50,560 --> 00:11:56,120I sat through the mentorship program and so many people at the end were like, oh my gosh,19400:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,120I was so good.19500:11:57,120 --> 00:11:58,120And it was good.19600:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,120I'm not denigrating it, please.19700:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,240I have a different lens, clearly, because someone who has struggled kind of in the area19800:12:04,240 --> 00:12:05,880of mentoring.19900:12:05,880 --> 00:12:16,440I think that people feel like mentors are these great people who have the answers, the20000:12:16,440 --> 00:12:17,840key to all of life.20100:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,080You know, like, you know, when you're looking for the elixir of life or the holy grail,20200:12:22,080 --> 00:12:29,160like, okay, the mentor has the keys, the keys to the kingdoms.20300:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,800And if I just do well, if I just get to the place where at the end they can pat me on20400:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,840the head and say, hey, you've done great there and give me these keys that my career is going20500:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,960to be so much better.20600:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,440And I just want to say that your mentor is not God, could never be.20700:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,400And so don't ask mentors to be superhuman.20800:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,440Don't ask them to be gods.20900:12:49,440 --> 00:12:50,440Mentors are just people.21000:12:50,440 --> 00:12:55,600They're people who've gotten insight and knowledge that has really helped them advance their21100:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,520career and they do have insight and knowledge that will help you to advance your career,21200:12:59,520 --> 00:13:04,040but they cannot give you, they cannot own your career for you.21300:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,160They cannot tell you where you're going, you have to decide where you're going.21400:13:08,160 --> 00:13:14,320Because where you're going is the sum of all the experiences you've had, the places you've21500:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,960been, the things that matter to you.21600:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,120You know, one of the panelists at this conference was asked, why do you do health disparities21700:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,120work?21800:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,120And she was like, what kind of question is that?21900:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,120My whole life.22000:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,520My whole life has the lens of disparities.22100:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,680It's the only thing I can see.22200:13:28,680 --> 00:13:34,640So her experience is so different from someone who grew up in an area that was not diverse22300:13:34,640 --> 00:13:42,360at all and they've never really understood why there are gaps in how people are treated.22400:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,240But her lens has been a lens of disparity since she was born.22500:13:46,240 --> 00:13:47,240And that's what she said.22600:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,440She said, I was born this way.22700:13:50,440 --> 00:13:55,800And so how can she have a career that's going to look the exact same as a mentor who is22800:13:55,800 --> 00:14:01,080absolutely well published, probably has a Nobel Prize or two, but has never had that22900:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,080same lens?23000:14:02,080 --> 00:14:08,120And so if she goes and she goes to her mentor and says, my job is to make you happy, guess23100:14:08,120 --> 00:14:09,440what she's going to do?23200:14:09,440 --> 00:14:16,560She's not going to be able to serve her desperate need to move forward research, science that23300:14:16,560 --> 00:14:22,040advances that closes the disparity gap.23400:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,680And so your mentor does not exist to tell you what to do.23500:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,600Your mentor actually serves as a platform for you to realize and achieve your career23600:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,160dreams.23700:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,120And so I want to say that if you are having conversations with mentors about your future,23800:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,240your job is not to say what projects do you have to work on so that I can work on those23900:14:41,240 --> 00:14:42,240projects.24000:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,520Your work is to first of all, clarify for them where you're going.24100:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,640Your job is to first of all, clarify for them where you're going so that they can tell you24200:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,760what tools they have within their program that serves your need.24300:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,800You are not there to serve your mentor.24400:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,160Your mentor is there to serve you.24500:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,480And if we flip it around, we think about the whole parenting thing.24600:15:04,480 --> 00:15:09,560So either you have been a kid or you have kids, either way you've experienced parenting24700:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,840to some extent, either on the reverse side or on the side of being a parent.24800:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,600You recognize that kids are not there to make their parents happy.24900:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,280They're not there to serve the needs of their parents.25000:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,560Parents are there to serve the needs of their children.25100:15:25,560 --> 00:15:30,000And then you consider that when it comes to mentoring, your mentors are there to serve25200:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,980the needs of your career.25300:15:31,980 --> 00:15:34,840It is not the other way around.25400:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,520They are the platform upon which you launch your career.25500:15:38,520 --> 00:15:43,240And to be honest, as they are the platform for you to be launching, for you to launch25600:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,000your career, it is such a rewarding thing for mentors.25700:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,720It absolutely is.25800:15:47,720 --> 00:15:53,680And any mentor who says it is burdensome to be a mentor is a mentor who does not care25900:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,360about that mentee to the same extent as they care about other mentees.26000:15:58,360 --> 00:15:59,360And it's just the way it is.26100:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,840It's hard to care about other people's kids in the same way as you care about yours.26200:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,980And the difference between your kids and other people's kids is just that you own them, right?26300:16:07,980 --> 00:16:12,120You may not have birthed them biologically, but you're like, I own these kids.26400:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,240It's my own.26500:16:13,240 --> 00:16:14,240That's all you have.26600:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,600That's the minimum, minimum qualification to be a parent.26700:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,320It's like, I own this kid, right?26800:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,600Whether you adopted the kid in whatever way the kid came to you, you say, I own this kid,26900:16:24,600 --> 00:16:25,600right?27000:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,860But the kids you don't own, you don't have to make an investment.27100:16:28,860 --> 00:16:32,940You can be like, oh, such a burden to care for this kid, right?27200:16:32,940 --> 00:16:35,520So if you're a mentee and your mentor is like, this is so hard.27300:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,520I'm just too hard to care for you.27400:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,560I just need you to recognize that that's a red flag.27500:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,720And you should find mentors that actually want you to succeed and do not think it's27600:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,720a burden to serve your needs.27700:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,600OK, I'm going to come down from that.27800:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,040I feel very strongly about this.27900:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,480Can you tell?28000:16:52,480 --> 00:16:53,480OK.28100:16:53,480 --> 00:17:02,160Number three is that until you understand your destination for your career, your interaction28200:17:02,160 --> 00:17:08,320with mentors will take you to the wrong destination every time without fail.28300:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,140I'm going to say that again.28400:17:12,140 --> 00:17:17,760Until you understand your destination, your interaction with mentors will take you to28500:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,620the wrong destination every time.28600:17:21,620 --> 00:17:23,880It may be a beautiful destination.28700:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,200You may be on an Alaskan cruise.28800:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,100You may be in Hawaii.28900:17:28,100 --> 00:17:31,040Maybe you're even on the Galapagos Islands.29000:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,680But if it's not your destination, it is not your destination.29100:17:35,680 --> 00:17:42,120If somebody who is interested in health disparities research is partnered with a mentor who doesn't,29200:17:42,120 --> 00:17:49,120want to have any disparities focus in their research, you are going to have great publications.29300:17:49,120 --> 00:17:50,880You're going to even have a grant or two.29400:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,880You're going to have plenary sessions at major meetings.29500:17:54,880 --> 00:18:00,340And you're going to be miserable because you didn't come to serve a population that doesn't29600:18:00,340 --> 00:18:02,220have health disparities.29700:18:02,220 --> 00:18:07,400You didn't come to have a research program that doesn't help close the gap because of29800:18:07,400 --> 00:18:13,280the lens through which you look at the world, because of the lens through which you look29900:18:13,280 --> 00:18:14,840at the world.30000:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,800And so you'll get to some incredible destination.30100:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,440And I see people all the time.30200:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,760They're like, oh my gosh, I'm so successful.30300:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,640I have all this grant funding and they are so miserable because they are so far from30400:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,880where they really want to be.30500:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,320And that's why you don't start with a mentor on what they have.30600:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,000You start with you and where you're going.30700:18:32,000 --> 00:18:40,440And you're going to find who allows you, who you allow to get on your boat to help guide30800:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,920you to your destination.30900:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,360Okay.31000:18:45,360 --> 00:18:52,680Number four is that your job is to take the time to understand your destination.31100:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,940And I won't tell you that this will be the hardest thing you will ever do.31200:18:56,940 --> 00:19:00,460And the reality of it is that it is a longitudinal journey.31300:19:00,460 --> 00:19:02,640It takes time to figure out where you're going.31400:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,880It absolutely takes time.31500:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,120And your job is to figure it out.31600:19:09,120 --> 00:19:14,720And I will tell you that coaching is the strategy that has really helped me and has helped so31700:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,320many people.31800:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,560And I would say that every clinician and every clinician who's making the transition to lead31900:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,800a research program really needs to have a mentor.32000:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,280I really feel that strongly about it.32100:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,360Every great player has a coach.32200:19:27,360 --> 00:19:29,120You may have raw talent.32300:19:29,120 --> 00:19:33,120You may have learned the game of, you know, since you were a child.32400:19:33,120 --> 00:19:39,840But no matter what, everybody who's ever achieved greatness in sports, greatness in a game,32500:19:39,840 --> 00:19:45,200greatness in tennis or in soccer or in football had a coach.32600:19:45,200 --> 00:19:50,020And I don't know how anybody feels like they're going to be able to really achieve their game32700:19:50,020 --> 00:19:53,920without someone to help them kind of like maximize their talent.32800:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,120Yeah, I feel personally about this.32900:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,600And clearly I'm a coach, right?33000:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,880But I also experience coaching like weekly.33100:20:01,880 --> 00:20:08,000Actually, honestly, if I put it all together, it's probably daily coaching.33200:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000And I'm not even kidding.33300:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,000I know.33400:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,000I know you're like, no way.33500:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,160I have a peer coaching group.33600:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,680I have a peer mentor that we connect with.33700:20:16,680 --> 00:20:17,680I connect with regularly.33800:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,560I have an executive coach that I work with.33900:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,000I even now have a health coach.34000:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,400I am that big on coaching.34100:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,320Anyway, so if you're looking for a coach, you should reach out to me so we can talk.34200:20:27,320 --> 00:20:32,960But anyway, I don't want to digress, but I want to tell you how hard it is to figure34300:20:32,960 --> 00:20:33,960out where you're going.34400:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,120And it's going to take you some time.34500:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,200And you know, there's some of us who know from the beginning like, oh, no, no, no, no.34600:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,760I came to Madison to solve the problem of health disparities.34700:20:41,760 --> 00:20:42,760You are so clear.34800:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,600I just am so excited for you.34900:20:45,600 --> 00:20:46,600Kudos to you.35000:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,880But for people like me, remember my people pleasing background.35100:20:50,880 --> 00:20:56,080It's very hard for us to step away from the people pleasing to say, what do I really want?35200:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,680And that is one of the most important things that you will do on this journey to becoming35300:21:00,680 --> 00:21:01,800a clinician scientist.35400:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,920So please pause.35500:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,900Stop going around looking for mentors until you're very clear where you want to go.35600:21:08,900 --> 00:21:13,800Because only when you're clear about where you want to go, can you now be ready to ask35700:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,040someone to show you how to get there.35800:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,000OK.35900:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,960The fifth thing I want to tell you is that once you've figured it out, and you don't36000:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,640have to wait until you figure it out, once you've figured out, well, you don't have to36100:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,400wait until you figured out the whole piece, right?36200:21:29,400 --> 00:21:34,280As long as you have a couple of things that you feel certain about, then you can go looking.36300:21:34,280 --> 00:21:39,560But when you go looking for a mentor, you're not now saying, well, which mentor is successful?36400:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,280Take me to your success destination.36500:21:42,280 --> 00:21:47,440Now you're going to say, what is it with this mentor that serves my purpose?36600:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,240What is it that this mentor has that will help me get there?36700:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,600And it may be that you don't know, because sometimes some of us make decisions about36800:21:53,600 --> 00:21:59,000mentors just based on people we like, or people who look like us that we resonate with, somebody36900:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,000who smiles at us.37000:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,760You're like, well, none of the attendings have smiled at me, but this attendee actually37100:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,720smiles like he cares about me, sure.37200:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,560Why don't I connect with them?37300:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,980So yeah, many of us start that mentoring journey with just somebody who would give us the time37400:22:12,980 --> 00:22:14,240of day.37500:22:14,240 --> 00:22:15,840And it's OK.37600:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,800We find mentors in different ways.37700:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,400It's like love.37800:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,360You just never know where that next connection will come from.37900:22:23,360 --> 00:22:24,360It's the chemistry.38000:22:24,360 --> 00:22:28,760What can we say?38100:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,680And so for some of us, there's the chemistry that leads us to the mentor.38200:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,720And then for the rest of us, sometimes there's a formal program, like, OK, I'm connecting38300:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,360you to this person.38400:22:39,360 --> 00:22:43,040But whatever way you get to your mentor, the first conversation you should start with is38500:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,520not what projects are you doing that I can jump on, but to really start with what you38600:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,520want to do.38700:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,400And that is one of the most important conversations you have.38800:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,080And what you want to get out of your mentoring program.38900:22:55,080 --> 00:23:00,240I hear people talk about establishing mentoring contracts.39000:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,040And it's a good idea.39100:23:02,040 --> 00:23:08,960I do laugh because if contracts were the answer to all things, then nobody would ever be angry39200:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,140enough to sue anybody in court, right?39300:23:11,140 --> 00:23:13,360Because contracts can be broken.39400:23:13,360 --> 00:23:17,160And at the end of the day, humans have to make the decision to commit.39500:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,280And contracts don't necessarily enforce that commitment.39600:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,960I mean, it can force people to do things they don't want to do, but it can't force them39700:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,960to do it well.39800:23:26,960 --> 00:23:33,000Anyway, so but even the idea of the contract, I think, is reasonable in thinking about,39900:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,600like, what do you want to get out of this?40000:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,200And that is, oh my goodness, it's the most important question a mentor can ever ask you.40100:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,080What do you want?40200:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,920And I want you to be wary of any mentor that doesn't ask you that question.40300:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,320I really do.40400:23:47,320 --> 00:23:52,800And in reality, and this is my experience now as a mentor, is that many clinicians just40500:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,560don't know what they want.40600:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,040And it does break my heart.40700:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,120Because it's like, oh, you don't know what you want.40800:23:59,120 --> 00:24:01,080But it's not a thing of judgment.40900:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,900It's just a thing of, like, well, you spent 10 years of your life, at least, not knowing41000:24:04,900 --> 00:24:08,980what you want, just doing what you're told or doing what is necessary.41100:24:08,980 --> 00:24:13,200And now to come to a place where you get to choose, it's very hard for many of us.41200:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,240It was hard for me, and so I don't judge it.41300:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,960And I do think that your journey and your journey of mentorship is to clarify.41400:24:21,960 --> 00:24:28,720Because sometimes when mentees don't show up, when they don't deliver, it's not because41500:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,000they're not reliable.41600:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,780It's because they don't resonate with the work.41700:24:33,780 --> 00:24:37,840And I think it's important to recognize that and to set people free.41800:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,260I will tell you, I'm one of those mentors.41900:24:39,260 --> 00:24:44,640I don't force you to do what you don't want to do, because this is not about you just42000:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,040moving work forward.42100:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,480It really is about you coming into your destiny.42200:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,280It's about you coming into your own.42300:24:52,280 --> 00:24:59,160It's about you having a career that really feels tangible, like really feels satisfying42400:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,220to you, fulfilling.42500:25:02,220 --> 00:25:05,240Because I want to see clinician scientists thrive.42600:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,040I do.42700:25:07,040 --> 00:25:12,320And so you want to identify what part of your mentor serves your purpose.42800:25:12,320 --> 00:25:13,720All right.42900:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,680Those are five things I shared with you.43000:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,080So yes, it was a bait and switch.43100:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,480I told you I would answer the question of how to be a good mentee, and then I turned43200:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,960around and gave you five things to think about, about why you should not be asking that question.43300:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,080And the first thing is that your job is not to be a good mentee.43400:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,720Your job is to advance your career in service of humanity.43500:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,800Number two, your mentor does not exist to tell you what to do.43600:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,000They are the platform to launch your career.43700:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,160Number three, until you understand your destination, your interaction with mentors will take you43800:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,880to the wrong destination, even if it's a beautiful one.43900:25:48,880 --> 00:25:54,320Number four, your job is to take time to uncover your direction, to uncover your destination,44000:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,840to uncover where you're going.44100:25:56,840 --> 00:26:02,720Number five, then you can meet with a mentor to identify what part of them you want to44200:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,340take with you.44300:26:04,340 --> 00:26:06,920What part of them will serve your journey.44400:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,440All right, controversial topic.44500:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,200You probably have some ideas about it.44600:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,200Please share them with me.44700:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,240You can do it in three ways.44800:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,240Number one, you can send me a DM through social media.44900:26:18,240 --> 00:26:19,960I am on Instagram.45000:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,400I'm on Facebook and on LinkedIn.45100:26:22,400 --> 00:26:29,440You can send me a podcast voicemail through our podcast website, clinicianresearcherpodcast.com.45200:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,520And number three, you can send me an email, info at coagcoach.com.45300:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,280Let me know what you think.45400:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,640I'd love to share your thoughts in a future episode.45500:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,040It has been a pleasure talking with you.45600:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,480Now, if you have ideas for episodes that I should record, please share them with me.45700:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,200I'd be happy to record an episode especially for you.45800:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,560All right, it's been a pleasure talking with you today.45900:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,480Thanks for taking time to listen.46000:26:56,480 --> 00:27:05,640Enjoy your day.46100:27:05,640 --> 00:27:11,000Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic46200:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,280clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they46300:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,800have a mentor.46400:27:17,800 --> 00:27:23,760If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.46500:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,640Someone else needs to hear it.46600:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,680So take a minute right now and share it.46700:27:29,680 --> 00:27:35,160As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation46800:27:35,160 --> 00:27:56,200of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.