Nailing the R01 proposal submission with Sarah Dobson

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to today's episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it's such a pleasure to be here.

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And I have to tell you that today I have a treat for you because I have an extra special

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guest.

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Her name is Sarah Dobson, and she is just a wonderful...

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Actually, the word I had in mind was badass, but she's a wonderful person.

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And she's just excellent in grant writing.

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And actually, I could tell her story, but I think she tells it better.

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So I'm just going to introduce her.

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Sarah, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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It's great to be here.

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So Sarah, you are someone who's an expert in grant writing, yet you are not currently

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in academic medicine.

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And so I want you to just share with my audience your story.

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How do you get from where you started to where you are now?

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Well, it's a long and winding path, first of all.

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An important thing to know about me is that I am a law school dropout.

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So I did a liberal arts undergrad degree, and my plan at that time was to pursue medicine

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and to head in that direction.

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But during my undergrad, I realized, I don't know if that's the career for me.

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And looking back, I think it had to do with feeling insecure that I didn't have all of

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the answers, and I couldn't possibly if I even studied to become a clinician.

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I don't know what that was about in my 19, 20-year-old brain, but I just felt a lot of

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pressure to be an expert, and I just didn't feel confident or comfortable claiming that,

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I think.

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And so I was like, well, that's probably not the right path for me.

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So what is an alternative?

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What's going to allow me to do something interesting and exciting and play with big ideas?

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And so I chose law school mostly as, I think, a way to expand my options and get some professional

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training that could then take me in a bunch of different directions.

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And so I didn't have to figure it out right away.

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So I was accepted to...

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So the other thing to know about me is that I am based in Canada.

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I'm Canadian.

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And so all of this is happening in Canada, although I work primarily with US-based researchers.

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That's a later part of the story.

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So I was accepted to law school, and on the first day, I just had this gut feeling like

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this is really not for me.

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But I stuck it out for about 18 months, and I learned some very important lessons.

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Number one about how to communicate with an audience and understanding the objective of

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a piece of writing, which was a really crucial lesson that I still use every day in my career

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now.

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But the process of quitting law school taught me a lot about who I am as a person, and just

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the growth that I had to go through to be able to make that decision was absolutely

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life-changing and career-changing.

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So that's a really important part of the story, even though it sounds like a deviation from

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the path.

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But what ended up happening after I quit law school is a friend of mine who was working

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at a hospital in a pulmonary oncology clinic was like, we need somebody.

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Do you want to come in and interview for a job?

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And so a little 22-year-old me went in for this job just as a clinic coordinator.

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And I took the job and got introduced to the world of biomedical research, because this

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pulmonary oncology clinic was doing a lot of research primarily on quality of life,

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but they were also doing clinical trials and that sort of thing.

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And this was my first real introduction to this universe.

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And I was fascinated and got really, really interested in the work that they were doing

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and really invested in the work they were doing.

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And of course, in my actual role, I was meeting a lot of these patients and getting to know

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them, and of course, watching their decline, because this was a lung cancer clinic.

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And so it was another really important growth point for me, I think, but also just like

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it was just really moving.

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It was just a really moving place to work.

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And it was also the first time I was working with clinicians and clinician scientists.

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And I just developed this, I think, this deep appreciation for the work that they do, primarily

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because it was so clear to me that the questions they were asking were emerging from patterns

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they were observing in their patients and just this desire to understand it, to help

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even more.

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And I just appreciated that so much about the people that I was working with.

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And so that was a really foundational experience for me.

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But what I realized in the couple of years that I was working my first real job was that

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I wanted to enter that world myself.

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And so I decided to pursue a graduate degree in population and public health research.

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And so I stayed connected with the hospital and with the clinic and ended up doing my

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research there, just understanding wait times.

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And it was what I think I was most interested in and I didn't really realize at the time

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was the more sort of qualitative aspect, like how does it really impact an individual to

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have to wait for a diagnosis and a treatment plan.

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But what I ended up doing was just trying to understand what are the different factors

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that might impact the patient's wait time and whether those are really necessary or

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not necessary.

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And it was mostly just a way to stay connected to the people that I'd started working with

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and the patients.

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But it was fascinating to be in that environment for such a long period of time.

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Halfway through my graduate degree, I ended up getting quite sick, and life-threateningly

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sick.

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So I had to put things on pause and that really I think also kind of changed the course of

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where things were going.

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I had fully intended to go on and do a PhD, but I just realized with what has happened,

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I need to just wrap up my master's degree and then find something a little bit more

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stable and figure out what next steps are.

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And so I moved across the country.

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I moved out here to Vancouver, British Columbia, and I ended up getting a job with a sort of

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a startup research center out here that focused on medical education and so helping figure

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out how we train the next generation of clinicians.

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And so it was introduced to a whole different area of research and just different perspectives

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on interdisciplinary research really.

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But what I was doing in that context was more on the administrative side of things and on

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the grantsmanship side of things.

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And that's where what I do now really comes in is I started, people would just send me

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their papers and their grants before they would be submitted to the different funding

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agencies or the different peer review journals and say, hey, can you just take a look at

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this?

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And it wasn't technically, at least initially, part of my job description, but because I'd

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grown up being a reader and a storyteller, I just kind of took that on as something I

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really enjoyed doing and people seemed to get a lot of benefit out of it.

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And more and more it became part of my role.

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But to shorten this story, I just realized at a certain point that being on the staff

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side at a university is not the best.

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And so for me, I just decided that I was going to take what I considered then to be my one

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skill set, which was really academic editing, and kind of start a freelance career and just

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go out on my own and see what I could do on my own and get away from all the bureaucracy

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and all of the underestimation that was happening in the university setting.

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And so that's what I did.

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And over time, I started specializing and subspecializing in grant writing, and even

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now more specifically in NIH grants, and more specifically than that in R01 or R series

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grants.

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Yeah.

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So hopefully that wasn't too long winded an explanation.

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It's a very long story.

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It's an important story, actually.

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So we've talked a few times and I've not heard the story this great extent of the story.

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So I'm really glad you share it because I think I get three things from you sharing

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that story.

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Number one is that you are someone who has a clear sense of who you are.

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And even though it took you 18 months from the time you knew that you weren't supposed

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to be in law school, you still got to a point where you made that decision.

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And it was a hard decision because actually what would have been easier, so to speak,

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is to keep going until the end, which is what most of us do.

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And you made a change.

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And then you took advantage of a situation in which you were growing as someone who was

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really an expert in grant writing, and you just continued to hone in on your expertise

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and you doubled down on it, which I think so many of us are trying to be generalists.

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And it's like, can you find the thing that you're really good at and really make it amazing?

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And that's what you've done.

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And then the third thing I get out of that too is that at some point you recognize that

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the value you were creating was greater than the value that was being reimbursed, if that's

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the right way to say it.

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And for that reason, you bet on yourself.

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And you said, you know what, I'm really good at this.

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I think it's high value.

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I'm going to see how other people perceive that.

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And it's been a bet that's paid off really big.

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And wow, now you help so many physicians and so many scientists turn around grants.

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And you can't even take as many people that are trying to come into your program.

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So I just want to say kudos to you for making a path that's really now serving so many people.

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And maybe you can just share with your audience, with my audience, what do you do as far as

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like, how do you help people write grants or how do you help people support people's

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grant writing?

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Yeah.

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So it happens.

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So I have a business, of course, but the way that I think about it is that there are sort

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of two arms to the business.

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One is more like a consulting agency where we work one-on-one with clients who are resubmitting

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previously discussed R01.

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So I know that sounds very specific, but we do that for a really important reason.

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And that's because if we have an R01 that's been previously submitted and discussed, we

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have some really important information.

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We have the summary statement.

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So we have the critiques from reviewers around the scientific and technical merit of the

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application.

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And we also have some information about the grantsmanship.

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But because the grant was discussed, we know that the critiques of the scientific merit

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and the approach primarily are fairly easily addressable in the ways that a grant that

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gets triaged probably aren't.

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There's a lot more to do there on the approach side than there would be on the discussed

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side.

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And so if we can help our PIs understand what it is that they really need to do on the grantsmanship

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side and also they're already tackling what needs to be done scientifically, that is what

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can help them get across the pay line.

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And so that's what we're supporting to do.

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And the reason that we've ended up in that place is just as you mentioned earlier, we

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have so much demand for this service that we can't possibly help everyone.

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And so we've had to be really selective about who we work with.

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And so we're working with the PIs who are in the best position to get funded.

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And even there, it's still a pretty big hurdle to clear when pay lines are so low and the

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success rate is so low.

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So yeah, we're doing what we can on that side.

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So that's the agency side.

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And then on the other side, it's really like an online education company, a faculty development

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company.

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And on that side of the business, what we do is support PIs to write grants through

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a self-paced online course called the Grant Funding Formula.

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And we have an R-series track for that course and also a Career Development Award track

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for that course.

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So it basically walks you through how to write one of these grants step by step, just to

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understand what the process is like going through strategy and planning and actually

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building out the argument that you're trying to make.

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And then how do you get appropriate feedback that's going to be useful to you and what

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you need to do to sort of fine tune the application.

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So we cover a lot in the self-paced course to help folks get these grants out the door

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in a shape that is going to help the grant be as competitive as possible.

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The other thing that we do on the education side of the business is we have a group program

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for women faculty who are making that transition from their Career Development Award to our

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level funding, primarily R01s, R35s, that sort of level.

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And that is a really, I would say, a really delicate transition point.

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There's a lot going on there that's about more than just learning how to write a different

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type of grant, a much bigger, more all-encompassing type of grant.

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There's a lot of identity stuff going on there and a lot that needs to be considered in terms

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of setting yourself up for long-term success and not just looking at the short-term, you

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know, how do I get this grant funded?

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It's really about faculty development, career development, and making sure that you are

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designing your career in a way that's going to be most fulfilling and meaningful to you

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so that you stick with it.

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Okay.

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You've said a lot, Sarah.

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You've told me about grant writing and then you talk about identity.

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Okay.

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Bring the two together for me.

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Okay.

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So there is a logic to all of this.

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So I started out really just doing the grant reviews.

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And what I noticed when I was working with PIs was a lot of, you know, I had a very detailed

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process laid out so that I could do my job, right?

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You know, I need to be able to get documents from the PIs so that I could do my review

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and get them back in time so that it would be useful for them to make changes and get

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the grant out the door.

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And so this was all laid out in advance.

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But what I found more often than not was PIs would come back and say, I wasn't able to

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get that done in time and I'm not going to be able to get my documents to you.

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But you know, I can't do my job if you can't get me your stuff.

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And so what I realized was a lot of PIs really struggle with time management, I mean, which

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I consider really self-management in a lot of ways.

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And I think, you know, if you're in the clinical world, in the academic world, you're almost

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inevitably an overachiever.

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And by nature, you're just taking on a lot of projects because you can't be.

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People look to you and say, you know, this person can get a lot done.

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So we're going to ask them to do even more.

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And if you're particularly early in your career, that is, I mean, it's flattering to be asked,

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right?

242
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And so you just take on more and more and more.

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But that doesn't leave a lot of space for your own work.

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But that work is the most important work that you can be doing.

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And if you're not making space for it, and if you're not recognizing how important it

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is to create space for the writing and the thinking and the preparation for the research

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you want to do and the impact that you want to make with your research, you're doing yourself

248
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a disservice.

249
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And so both the grant funding formula course and, in particular, the group program called

250
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K to R Essentials, those were developed to support PIs in better preparing for grant

251
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writing in particular, but more broadly just in terms of how to think about how they spend

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their time.

253
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Because I think in the long run, that is one of the most important things you can do to

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be successful and prolific as a researcher is to understand your own habits, understand

255
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what your priorities are, understand what it really takes out of you to produce excellence.

256
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And if you're just, again, looking at the short term and not being as intentional as

257
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you could be about all of that, it's going to be so much harder to produce a grant at

258
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all, much less a competitive grant.

259
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And you're going to burn yourself out in the process.

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And that doesn't serve anybody.

261
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Wow.

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I feel like some of the, you know, as you're talking, I think what comes to mind is that

263
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some of the things you're saying actually feel countercultural, right?

264
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Because we're in a space where it's like, no, just get the grant out and then get the

265
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next one out and then get the next one out.

266
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But you don't advocate that.

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You don't advocate just grant after grant after grant submission.

268
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But there's pressure on faculty to get funded.

269
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So how do you manage that?

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How do you manage the pressure to get funded in producing high quality work that can be

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funded?

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Yeah.

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So that is a great question.

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And I think, so I'm coming at this as an outsider, right?

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I don't experience that same pressure.

276
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And so to a certain extent, I don't relate to it.

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But what I find so fascinating is that you and your institution want the same thing,

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which is a funded application, right?

279
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But what they are telling you to do is to just churn out application after application

280
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with no regard to quality.

281
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You know, I guess with the idea that eventually something is going to hit.

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But that's not how I look at it at all.

283
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And that's the whole reason that my business exists, right?

284
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I don't buy into that.

285
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I don't buy into the idea that the quality is consistent across all of these grants that

286
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you're churning out cycle after cycle or multiple grants in one cycle, right?

287
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In my view, it's always, always quality over quantity.

288
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And the more time you can spend understanding what it is you want to do and how you want

289
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to do it and learning how to communicate the value of your research, that is what's going

290
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to get you funded.

291
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It has nothing to do with the number of grants you submit.

292
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It has to do with the quality of the grants that you submit.

293
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And yes, of course, there is some luck involved.

294
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And we are well aware of the systemic biases that exist within, I mean, I'm talking about

295
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NIH specifically, but that's true of many, many funding agencies, right?

296
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That but I do think that quality makes a difference.

297
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And what I mean by quality is that you are making it as clear and simple as possible

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to your audience, to your reviewers, what it is that you are trying to accomplish and

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why it matters.

300
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And it's really hard to do that and to put yourself in somebody else's shoes, to put

301
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yourself in your reviewer's shoes when you've got a million other things going on and you're

302
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just trying to check those boxes.

303
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You're not really giving yourself the space to think through your idea and to figure out

304
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how someone else might receive it for the very first time.

305
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And so I understand that there is tremendous pressure on clinicians to submit these grants

306
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and to generate grant funding.

307
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But I don't think the answer is to fall prey to this false sense of urgency because I don't

308
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think it's serving you.

309
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I think you're letting anxiety drive your decision making and that is not what is going

310
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to get you funded.

311
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,400
Thank you for sharing that.

312
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:56,480
So what I'm hearing is really starting from a deep space of work that matters, work that

313
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you find valuable and important and building from that rather than the sense of urgency

314
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and anxiety of just get another grant out, just get another grant out, which could decrease

315
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the quality of the work you do and also perhaps not even be satisfying because it may not

316
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speak to kind of the greater good that you want to do through your science.

317
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:18,640
Exactly.

318
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And I'll just add one more thing, which is that it's completely understandable that that

319
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is the impulse that most researchers have because that's what they see happening around

320
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them everywhere, right?

321
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That's just what everybody does.

322
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You're just on this treadmill of submitting applications and rushing to resubmit the ones

323
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that don't get funded and just continuing that cycle.

324
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So it's completely understandable that that's how you think that you're supposed to do it,

325
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but it does not have to be that way.

326
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And in fact, especially if you are just starting out in your career and you don't have the

327
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body of work that your more senior colleagues have to draw upon to be able to write a grant

328
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more quickly, you're going to think that you're doing it wrong.

329
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You're going to think that because it's taking you so long that you're doing something wrong.

330
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But when you're in the beginning, there's so much learning that you're doing.

331
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You're learning a new grant mechanism and all of the guidelines and hoops you have to

332
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jump through administratively to get the grant out the door, right?

333
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,400
So that's one piece that you're learning.

334
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,560
You're also developing your program of research and trying to figure out what it is that you

335
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want to do and how you want to get there.

336
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:51,880
And then you're also learning how to write this new type of application.

337
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And so all of that is happening simultaneously.

338
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And it's just a lot.

339
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And I think people underestimate that full stop.

340
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They just underestimate all of the different pieces that are involved in that early stage.

341
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And I think they just underestimate how much time that actually takes to do well.

342
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What I'm hearing you say is that it's like a plant, a seed that was planted.

343
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And although you may not yet see the seed push through the surface, there's a lot going

344
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on beneath the surface.

345
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And it's helping people to recognize that even if they may not have pushed through yet,

346
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there's a lot going on and to really show themselves compassion and not compare themselves

347
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to perhaps those who are more senior and have passed that phase.

348
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But that's all they may recognize as the norm for themselves right now.

349
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But really to look and see how much has been accomplished and to really look on oneself

350
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with compassion.

351
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,840
Well, yes, you said that far more eloquently than I did.

352
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:02,840
That's exactly it.

353
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I would say compassion over anxiety, kind of driving the bus every single time.

354
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,240
So you've worked with a lot of faculty.

355
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,440
Who are those who succeed?

356
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,980
Well, good question.

357
00:26:17,980 --> 00:26:27,160
One of the things that we have observed is that the PIs who continue to advance their

358
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,320
research idea from the time they submit their initial application to the time they get their

359
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:39,560
peer review critique back, those are the ones who are most successful because they're not

360
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,840
just submitting a grant and kind of moving on to the next thing.

361
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:51,760
They're always thinking about what needs to be done to move this project forward.

362
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:57,220
And so by the time they get their summary statement, their peer review critique back,

363
00:26:57,220 --> 00:27:02,880
they've already very likely addressed some of the critiques that are in the summary statement,

364
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:10,520
but they're also much more nimble and prepared to answer any critiques that they had not

365
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,720
anticipated.

366
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So that would be one thing.

367
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:20,480
I would say the ones who are organized and prepared.

368
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:26,040
And sometimes that means, you know, if we're talking about resubmissions, that means people

369
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:34,480
who are willing to skip a grant cycle to be able to do the job that needs to be done to

370
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,320
get the grant into competitive shape.

371
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:42,600
So if the critiques are telling you that you need more preliminary data, for example, and

372
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:49,040
there's just realistically not enough time to get that all done and to rewrite the grant

373
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:55,360
for the upcoming grant cycle, they are willing to play the long game and understand that

374
00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:05,400
it's worthwhile to wait three months to be able to do a better job on the resubmission.

375
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:14,600
And I would say more broadly, when I think about the PIs who've been successful in that

376
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:21,760
K to R transition, it's the ones who understand where it is that they're headed.

377
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,520
They understand what their vision is.

378
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,600
They understand where they want to go and where they want to make their impact.

379
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,700
And they just focus all of their energy on that.

380
00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:33,320
And they just don't worry about the other stuff.

381
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:39,920
Because again, you're going to get so many requests for your time and your participation

382
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,740
and your expertise.

383
00:28:42,740 --> 00:28:48,280
But if it doesn't align with where you want to go and the impact that you want to make,

384
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,640
it's not worth your time.

385
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,560
Or I guess it's up to you to decide whether it's worth your time.

386
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,800
But that's a really important consideration to just think about, why am I here?

387
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,080
What am I here to do?

388
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:11,340
And how can I point all of the work that I'm doing towards that and just gracefully let

389
00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:14,840
go of everything else that comes my way?

390
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:23,560
But what that requires is a deep sense of self-trust and self-compassion and a willingness

391
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,680
to be uncomfortable, quite honestly.

392
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,000
Wow, this is powerful stuff.

393
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,520
So we're talking about grant writing, but we're not talking about grant writing.

394
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,240
We're not talking about grant writing.

395
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:41,860
And this is what I mean when I say, laying that foundation for long-term success, right?

396
00:29:41,860 --> 00:29:45,720
Because it's not just about one grant application.

397
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,720
It's about how you set up your career.

398
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:57,420
And for clinicians, that can get really complicated because there are just so many different demands

399
00:29:57,420 --> 00:29:58,420
on your time.

400
00:29:58,420 --> 00:30:05,640
And so in my view, that makes it extra important to clarify what matters to you and where you

401
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:11,960
want your impact to be, and more specifically, what you want your research impact to be so

402
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:18,760
that you're not spreading yourself too thin and you're able to really devote your time

403
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:25,280
and your energy and your focus to what is most meaningful and fulfilling to you.

404
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,280
Yeah, it's really important.

405
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,280
It's really deep and powerful.

406
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,440
I mean, the whole time you were speaking, I think the thought that came to my mind is

407
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,160
just the sense of depth, right?

408
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,720
This is not just a surface level, produce the next thing.

409
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,280
It's like, where are you going?

410
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:42,640
What are you creating?

411
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,920
What's the impact you envision for your research?

412
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,740
And start from that space.

413
00:30:47,740 --> 00:30:55,200
And because you start from that space, you're not anxious trying to just do the next thing

414
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,800
and the next thing because it's really, you recognize, you said you're playing the long

415
00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:59,800
game.

416
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,600
If you're going to play the long game, you got to work at it.

417
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,160
And whether or not people support you, you've got to move things forward.

418
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,840
So it's, yeah, it makes it all comes back full circle to what you talked about identity.

419
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,360
It's like, who are you?

420
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,240
Start from that space rather than what do you need to do?

421
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:19,240
That's exactly it.

422
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:31,200
And I think playing the long game allows you to put those disappointments in context, right?

423
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:38,920
It's, graduate writing is really challenging and the funding landscape is very competitive.

424
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,240
And so you're not going to get every grant that you submit it.

425
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,160
In fact, you're probably, I mean, if we're talking about NIH, you're probably going to

426
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:53,680
get 20% or less of the grants that you submit funded unless and until you really develop

427
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,960
that grandmanship skill set and get really solid in terms of your program of research,

428
00:31:58,960 --> 00:31:59,960
right?

429
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:01,640
That's the beginning.

430
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,240
Set the bar low.

431
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:11,760
And so if you're thinking about it in terms of the long game, you're not as worried about

432
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,880
this one didn't get funded this time, but I know where this is going and I know that

433
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:25,520
the feedback that I'm getting can improve this for the next time.

434
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:32,040
It's easier to not take it as personally, I think, if you're focused on where you're

435
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,040
headed.

436
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:39,400
Any one of those losses is not going to matter as much because you understand what your mission

437
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,400
is.

438
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:48,080
Yeah, you know, one of the things you talked about earlier is about the need to be uncomfortable.

439
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,800
And I think to some extent, there is a feeling that there's not as much institutional support

440
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,720
for these kinds of endeavors really.

441
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,560
And I think that's some of the pressure people feel is where it feels as if, well, if you

442
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,600
don't get funded, there you go.

443
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,040
We're going to give you a lot more other work to do and now you really won't be able to

444
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,000
move your work forward.

445
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,680
So I think there's this sense of, well, if I don't get the support I need, maybe I can't

446
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:13,960
move forward.

447
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:20,080
Could you speak to how do you move forward even if you're betting on yourself and you're

448
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,640
not necessarily receiving the kind of support you need, but you recognize that your work

449
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,880
is important and you want to move it forward?

450
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,000
Another excellent question.

451
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:40,200
So the first thing that wants to come out is do not wait for your institution to support

452
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,280
you.

453
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:47,840
And I say that as someone who believes very, very strongly that your institution ought

454
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:54,040
to support you financially to succeed, right?

455
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:55,920
Because they're reaping the benefits of it.

456
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,480
I mean, again, when we're talking about NIH grants, which is what I specialize in, they

457
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:05,520
are getting massive benefit through indirect funds from that.

458
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:12,840
And so for them to just say, good luck to you, figure it out is abhorrent to me.

459
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:18,360
And yet that's what a lot of faculty experience is like, how hard can it be?

460
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,560
Just figure it out.

461
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,240
You got to do this.

462
00:34:22,240 --> 00:34:26,600
And if you can't figure it out, you're just going to be spending more of your time doing

463
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,200
clinical work and less of your time doing research.

464
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,480
And there's just nothing we can do about that.

465
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,520
So again, I recognize that pressure.

466
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:48,480
But what I would say is that if you're letting your anxiety about that dictate how you move

467
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:55,480
forward, that is just a recipe for burnout, for unfulfillment, for unhappiness in your

468
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:56,480
career.

469
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:05,600
And so if you can focus on what matters the most to you and find ways to make it work

470
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:12,100
without the success of your institution, they can't say anything to you at that point, right?

471
00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:17,720
Because you're going to be successful in spite of that.

472
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:23,800
And also, that is really useful information for you to have about your institution, right?

473
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:31,400
If they are not willing to support you to get grant funding or whatever other sort of

474
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,080
professional development you might need to succeed in your career, that's just really

475
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:46,400
good to know because that allows you to decide whether this is the right home for you.

476
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:54,920
And I mean, none of this is easy and a lot of it is really uncomfortable.

477
00:35:54,920 --> 00:36:08,200
But I think the wider your eyes are open to how institutions get away with bad behavior

478
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:18,000
and the amount of pressure that's unnecessarily on clinical faculty and research faculty,

479
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:27,120
yeah, I mean, again, I'm an outsider to this and I just find the whole thing to be baffling

480
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,960
the way that most faculty are treated.

481
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:36,760
And so anywhere you can push back and disrupt and fight that by just saying, like, I'm just

482
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,480
going to do it my way and we'll just see how it turns out.

483
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:48,040
Yeah, that would be my approach.

484
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,920
The whole time you're talking, I'm smiling inside because I'm like, this is why I love

485
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,920
Sarah.

486
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:57,920
And it's the journey.

487
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,120
And when you shared your story initially, it's like, this is your story, the story of

488
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:09,400
not accepting the mold, not just cutting off your arms and fitting in the mold.

489
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,240
It's the story of saying, no, I don't feel like a fit.

490
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:16,040
How do I make this work for me?

491
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:22,320
And what resonates with me and what you're saying is that the institution is here for

492
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:23,320
us.

493
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,520
We are not here as faculty for the institution.

494
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:31,200
The institution is a platform to build our careers.

495
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:36,480
And the institution is the institution because of faculty who have thriving careers.

496
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,800
And so even when we're feeling pressure, it's up to us.

497
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,920
In a sense, it's like a kid who just only wants to eat candy.

498
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,280
It's like, well, candy is not good for you.

499
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,080
So we're not going to let you eat it all the time.

500
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,920
In a sense, it's you standing up and saying, I know you're saying this is the path you

501
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,120
want me to take, but this is not the path you want for me.

502
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,760
You want me to be successful.

503
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,960
And therefore, I push back against this because when I'm successful and I will be, you're

504
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,440
going to benefit from it.

505
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,120
And therefore, you can support me.

506
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:08,120
And that's hard.

507
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,640
No, of course it is.

508
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:17,780
But institutions make you feel like you are lucky to be there and you are easily replaceable.

509
00:38:17,780 --> 00:38:20,320
And it's just not true.

510
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:25,920
And you have a lot more control than you think you do.

511
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:36,600
And I think the more that you can recognize that and use that, the better off everyone

512
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:37,880
will be ultimately.

513
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:46,000
I think hopefully institutions are starting to realize that the systems that they've built

514
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,760
are just not working anymore.

515
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,480
And we need a new way of doing this.

516
00:38:51,480 --> 00:39:02,120
We need a new way of moving through academia in a way that is more sustainable for faculty.

517
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:07,560
And that, I think, unfortunately starts with the faculty because the institutions aren't

518
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,800
going to do it.

519
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:17,480
So pushing back and saying, I'm going to do it my way, that's how it starts.

520
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,040
Yeah.

521
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,040
It's really beautiful.

522
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,040
It's powerful.

523
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,040
And it's important.

524
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,040
And it's hard.

525
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:30,080
And that's why being part of communities that support you to do that is critical.

526
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,720
It's hard to do this work by yourself.

527
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:33,720
Absolutely.

528
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:35,320
Absolutely.

529
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,400
So what does my audience need to know about your community?

530
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,680
They're like, oh my gosh, this Sarah is amazing.

531
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,400
I want her to help me with my grant.

532
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,440
How do they connect with you?

533
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:49,560
Well, they can head to my website, which is sarahdobson.co.

534
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,640
So S-A-R-I-H-D-O-B-S-O-N dot C-O.

535
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,640
And they can sign up for my newsletter there.

536
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:01,560
So once a week, I send out an email that speaks to a lot of what we've been talking about

537
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,880
on the show today.

538
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:10,800
And of course, earlier I mentioned the different ways that I serve PIs and my team and I serve

539
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:11,800
PIs.

540
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,400
And so you can find more information about that on the website as well.

541
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,400
And of course, if you have any questions, you can just reply to any one of those newsletter

542
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:25,560
emails and we're happy to answer any of those questions.

543
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:26,560
So awesome.

544
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,680
I'm putting in a plug for your newsletter because it's so powerful.

545
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,240
I love reading your newsletters.

546
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:32,720
They're so awesome.

547
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:38,200
You sent me so many lovely notes after your newsletters.

548
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:39,680
I really appreciate it.

549
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,840
You need to do a master class for how to write a newsletter.

550
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:43,840
You're so good.

551
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:50,080
Okay, so we're at the end of the podcast and we've said a lot, we've shared a lot, we've

552
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:51,080
discussed a lot.

553
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,080
Thank you.

554
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,200
What is left on set?

555
00:40:53,200 --> 00:41:00,040
What is the final parting comment that you want to share as we end the show?

556
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:09,680
I mean, I think it's just coming back to what I started with, which is I started my career

557
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:23,040
working with clinician scientists and just really deeply appreciate the inspiration that

558
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,840
clinician scientists have for the research that they're doing, which is it's just motivated

559
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,760
by a desire to better understand and better serve their patients.

560
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:39,080
And so what I want to remind your audience of is don't lose sight of that.

561
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,800
That is the most important thing that you need to hold onto in all of this with all

562
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:53,320
of the different demands coming at you and the busyness of your professional life.

563
00:41:53,320 --> 00:42:00,720
Just always try to hold on to that and why you're in this career in the first place,

564
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:09,320
because that is what is going to help you develop those cutting edge research ideas

565
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:17,140
and it's what is going to bring enthusiasm and curiosity and passion to your grants and

566
00:42:17,140 --> 00:42:18,140
your papers.

567
00:42:18,140 --> 00:42:21,000
And that is what it's all about.

568
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,480
That's so beautiful.

569
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,480
What a way to end.

570
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,560
Thank you so much, Sarah.

571
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,680
My absolute pleasure.

572
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,200
Thank you so much for having me.

573
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:32,200
All right, everyone.

574
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,000
I don't even know what to say to add to that.

575
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,760
It's been a really amazing and powerful conversation.

576
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,120
Somebody else needs to hear this.

577
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,800
And so please don't listen and then just put your phone away.

578
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,240
Please share this with someone else, especially people you know and you know who they are

579
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:52,880
who are struggling with the whole grant writing cycle and Sarah's team can certainly help.

580
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:53,880
All right.

581
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,800
Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you with you all today, Sarah.

582
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,320
Thank you again for being on the show.

583
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:00,320
My pleasure.

584
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,320
All right.

585
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:08,400
Bye, everyone.

586
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,760
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic

587
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:19,520
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

588
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:20,520
have a mentor.

589
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:26,640
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

590
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,360
Someone else needs to hear it.

591
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,440
So take a minute right now and share it.

592
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:37,880
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

593
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:43,560
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do health

594
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:44,560
care.

595
00:43:44,560 --> 00:44:00,600
Thanks, Sarah.